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milanessa
06-13-2012, 10:57 PM
Am I missing the homphobia in the thread? I don't remember reading anything out of line, but maybe I did just miss the comment.


You're not alone - haven't read any but PinkFeathers found some somewhere. Maybe.

Gil-Galad
06-13-2012, 10:57 PM
Of course.
That's like Freud thinking that women wanted to be men. Women didn't want to be men; women wanted what men had--power. Autonomy. Independence. Control over their own lives. But they didn't want to be men.

I don't think Johnny would be straight if he could choose because he would be a completely different person. Why would he want that?


That was why I asked if he really means that. It seems a little out of character for him. I always saw as a more of a "I am who I am. I can't be anyone else than me and I wouldn't want to be anyone else."-kind of guy.

Sparks
06-13-2012, 11:00 PM
I've heard gay friends say that it would've been easier for them in their youth if they were straight. Just like the only reason I'd want to be a male is for the greater sense of safety, mobility, etc.

Gil-Galad
06-13-2012, 11:27 PM
I've heard gay friends say that it would've been easier for them in their youth if they were straight. Just like the only reason I'd want to be a male is for the greater sense of safety, mobility, etc.
That's not same as saying "I would choose to be straight if you gave me that option now" in your late twenties.

I think a lot of people in their teens dream of situations that somehow differ from their reality, they want other parents, better hair, other talents and skills, a different sexual orientation, a nicer car, a popular sibling and not some weirdo brother, the coolest friends on the block and not the small circle of chess players they hang around with...

But I always thought that accepting who you are, that you couldn't be anyone else and more importantly, wouldn't want to be anyone else - that this is an important part of growing up.

leapfrogonice
06-14-2012, 02:03 AM
The courage it takes to "accept who you are" is especially admirable. I suppose it is arguable that being gay in a sport such as figure skating would not present the same challenges as for example being a gay male playing in professional football (as has been written about recently in major newspapers). That said, just from reading the comments from certain high volume posters, it is obvious how much HATE there is in this world. Anonymous posters who malign and make truly hurtful remarks, often about skaters (people who are not even of legal age) only shows how disturbed the poster is. That takes so little courage. It is cowardly. Johnny's "comfort" with who he is, is frankly admirable, regardless of whether you buy into his personna/lifestyle or not.

hydro
06-14-2012, 03:00 AM
That's not same as saying "I would choose to be straight if you gave me that option now" in your late twenties.

I think a lot of people in their teens dream of situations that somehow differ from their reality, they want other parents, better hair, other talents and skills, a different sexual orientation, a nicer car, a popular sibling and not some weirdo brother, the coolest friends on the block and not the small circle of chess players they hang around with...

But I always thought that accepting who you are, that you couldn't be anyone else and more importantly, wouldn't want to be anyone else - that this is an important part of growing up.

Um, I've heard gay men say that at 40. At 50. At 60. It has nothing to do with age, but everything to do with blatant external homophobia. When you have people on the nightly news calling your lifestyle depraved and sinful, it's not so easy to be accepting.

I'm sorry, I find your post ridiculously offensive. Sexual orientation and the stigma around homosexuality is not the same as wanting a nicer car.

Prancer
06-14-2012, 03:05 AM
I think it depends on the woman.

If you are talking about people, that's always the case; individuals vary.

But if you are talking about women as a group, the majority, at least in surveys, have indicated that they do not want to be men.

bardtoob
06-14-2012, 04:01 AM
Can this thread be closed since it has stopped being about the interview?

berthesghost
06-14-2012, 01:09 PM
That said, just from reading the comments from certain high volume posters, it is obvious how much HATE there is in this world. Anonymous posters who malign and make truly hurtful remarks, often about skaters (people who are not even of legal age) only shows how disturbed the poster is. :lol:
You clearly state in the first sentence that you recognize posters and then turn around and say theyre anonymous. Which. Is it?
We all post here by name, and every post is traceable. I may not be able to ring judge Judy's door bell, but that doesn't mean i don't know him and know his views on skating. For that matter, I can't ring the doorbell of the real judge Judy either. So what's this anonymous bullshit. No one comes here and posts "Kwan smells like day old fish" without a name attached, and when they do, we quote "fish smeller" and direct our disagreement to that one poster.
When posters rip someone a new one for daring to have a different opinion, that person reads that and feels those words. Really, this whole "cowardly people hiding behind the computer to spread hate" has become a generic concept with a life of its own, and quite frankly is often just another way of saying "I hate your opinion"

Gil-Galad
06-14-2012, 02:43 PM
Um, I've heard gay men say that at 40. At 50. At 60. It has nothing to do with age, but everything to do with blatant external homophobia. [...]
I'm sorry, I find your post ridiculously offensive. Sexual orientation and the stigma around homosexuality is not the same as wanting a nicer car.
Being 40 does not equal being a grown-up.

And I deliberately kept my post a little playful, that's why I included the part about the car and the hair. But I can spell this out for you. Everyone goes through tough times, everyone has some kind of burden to carry. I've met incredibly admirable people who went through tougher times than I could ever imagine, and even these people, while admitting that they often wished things were different when they were younger, say now that they wouldn't want to be anybody else. Because that wouldn't be them.


When you have people on the nightly news calling your lifestyle depraved and sinful, it's not so easy to be accepting.
Oh, come on. There will always be people that think that certain groups don't live the way they should. And there will always be idiots who spew that nonsense on TV or on the internet. Radical Islamic pundits call liberal independent women depraved and sinful. Also on TV. Actually, there are quite a few Christian groups in the US and in Europe who do the same. I don't think self-confident people should allow themselves to be affected by idiots on TV / in the media.

I think certain intolerant sentiments in the general population and among immediate family and friends are much more significant than stupid pundits on TV. But even here things have changed for the better, the "Western" (hate that expression) world has never been more open towards homosexuality, never been more liberal. At least not since the fall of the Roman empire. Yes, there are still lots of people around who are not tolerant, who spew nonsense - and there always will be. But to quote a very wise man:

If you're holding out for universal popularity, I'm afraid you will be in this cabin for a very long time.

So, yes. When I read Johnny's statement, it made me a little sad. It's not negative criticism per se, not some judgement. Just surprise, some curiosity and a little sadness that he, a grown man who has been so outspoken and unapolegetic about who he is, feels that way.

brightphoton
06-14-2012, 02:55 PM
^ You do realize that a lot of homosexuals are killed every year because they are homosexuals, right? And that they're denied the rights that heterosexuals enjoy, such as marriage and hospital visitations? And that they suffer discrimination for their sexual orientation?

I hope you're not implying that all gay people have to worry about are a bit of ribbing and teasing from the television, hehehe, being a little playful.

Edit: It also just occurred to me. Didn't some Canadian kid commit suicide last year because he was harassed so much for being gay and in figure skating? I really don't see how you can sweep this under the rug.

Gil-Galad
06-14-2012, 03:54 PM
^ You do realize that a lot of homosexuals are killed every year because they are homosexuals, right? And that they're denied the rights that heterosexuals enjoy, such as marriage and hospital visitations? And that they suffer discrimination for their sexual orientation?

I hope you're not implying that all gay people have to worry about are a bit of ribbing and teasing from the television, hehehe, being a little playful.

Edit: It also just occurred to me. Didn't some Canadian kid commit suicide last year because he was harassed so much for being gay and in figure skating? I really don't see how you can sweep this under the rug.
And this relevant to my post how? I never denied that this is a serious civil rights issue. I never denied that it is difficult to be part of a minority, that suffers from discrimination and worse. The TV part of my post was a direct answer to previous poster. I am not denying Johnny or anyone else the desire to be heterosexual / white / male / affluent / physically and mentally perfect (if there is such a thing). But I am also not denying myself the right to be sad and surprised when people say that given the choice they'd choose to be heterosexual / male / white.

berthesghost
06-14-2012, 04:24 PM
^ You do realize that a lot of homosexuals are killed every year because they are homosexuals, right? And that they're denied the rights that heterosexuals enjoy, such as marriage and hospital visitations? And that they suffer discrimination for their sexual orientation?

I hope you're not implying that all gay people have to worry about are a bit of ribbing and teasing from the television, hehehe, being a little playful.

Edit: It also just occurred to me. Didn't some Canadian kid commit suicide last year because he was harassed so much for being gay and in figure skating? I really don't see how you can sweep this under the rug.Boy, you really did take something and run with it!:lol:

Did you read in the paper about the 3 month old girl in India killed by her parents because she was a girl? Are we now ranking minorities and which is in most danger and which has more right to feel discriminated against? ALL minorities experience prejudice. But when you are a minority, wallowing in it and seeing prejudice behind every failure to get what you want isn't helpful or healthy IMHO. Im sure I'm not the only gay man on this board that feels that homosexuality isn't THE ONLY thing USFS hated about Johnny. And honestly, straight people lecturing about the evils of homophobia gets really really :rolleyes: after a while.

Im almost 50, and I can tell you we've come a long way baby! and hearing a privledged, accomplished, award-decorated, popular, gay celebrity publicly say he wishes he'd rather be straight because life would be easier just makes me feel like he set the clock back 40 years. How is telling a gay teen getting bullied at school that his life would be easier if he liked girls helpful?

Sorry, just my opinion, but all of Johnny's "I want to wear fur, but I don't want anyone to ever criticize me for wearing it" nonsense is boring. It never seems "I was openly gay in a homophobic sport, but still won many national championships because being good at what you do trumps prejudice", but always seems more whinny "I should have won more, but it wasn't my skating that was at fault, it was the judges and their homophobia that kept me back".

kwanfan1818
06-14-2012, 04:45 PM
.How is telling a gay teen getting bullied at school that his life would be easier if he liked girls helpful?

I would think that stating the obvious is not very useful, since I'm sure every boy being bullied for being gay knows it would be easier if he were straight, but I didn't see where he was giving counsel to young gay men or trying to be useful.

Gil-Galad
06-14-2012, 07:08 PM
I would think that stating the obvious is not very useful, since I'm sure every boy being bullied for being gay knows it would be easier if he were straight, but I didn't see where he was giving counsel to young gay men or trying to be useful.

But I had the impression that he did see himself as a role-model, at least at one point in his life.

PressConference2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6-MAmhGKsU&feature=player_embedded)

“Even my gender has been questioned. I want that to be public because I don’t want 50 years from now more young boys and girls to have to go through this sort of thing and to have their whole life basically questioned for no reason other than to make a joke and to make people watch their television program,” ”I hope more kids can grow up the same way that I did and more kids can feel the freedom that I feel to be themselves and to express themselves” “There’s a whole generation of people that aren’t defined by their sex or their race or by who they like to sleep with. I think as a person you know what your values are and what you believe in, and I think that’s the most important thing.”

Actually, just reading the quotes above makes me think there might be some misunderstanding in this last interview. Because it is a little contradictory, non? "I want people to believe in themselves and express themselves however they want and people should not be defined by race, sex and sexual orientation - but given the choice I'd choose to be heterosexual." :confused: