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barbk
06-13-2012, 02:29 AM
Carbs in the past were not remotely as refined as the white pasta of today. They had a lower glycemic index :shuffle: Definitely what you're saying is true, but the refined carbs are a big part of the problem when it comes to the type-2 diabetes epidemic. It is a definite fact that strain upon the pancreas and upon our bodies is what prevents people from producing and absorbing the insulin they need to regulate their bloodsugars, and it is a fact that refined carbs spike a person's blood sugar. I'm not sure what there is to buy in to.

Deserts were also much less sweet going by my oldest (1920) cookbook. For similar recipes, often only 2/3 of the sugar called for today.

michiruwater
06-13-2012, 02:35 AM
Oh yes, that's also very true, I was just responding to the carbs thing because of a previous post :) Sugars and carbs are very refined and sugars are also found in much larger quantities and in many more products they didn't used to be in. I'm always shocked when I see that sugar is one of the first three ingredients in things like crackers or chips - items we don't necessarily think of as sweet which also have a high glycemic index normally because of the high carbohydrate/low fiber content. Our food system is pretty broken but instead of trying to fix the system and educate people we're mostly just blaming people for being fat. Definitely people need to utilize self-control, but without proper education and with a food system so utterly broken it's not hard to imagine why it's really difficult to do so - especially when even items marketed as healthy (or which used to be healthy when they were made differently) are full of processed and refined ingredients.

leesaleesa
06-13-2012, 02:36 AM
People who have gastric bypass lose huge amounts of weight, and it has nothing to do with what kind of food they eat, it has to do with restricting calories. Certain foods may make you hungrier and cause you in turn to eat more, but calories ingested and calories burned will always be the key to weight control.

michiruwater
06-13-2012, 02:42 AM
I'm not just talking about weight control. I'm talking about type-2 diabetes and our food system as well as overall health of a person.

A person could eat a small number of calories of absolute crap and lose weight. That doesn't mean they'd be healthy. How much you eat definitely plays a bigger factor in weight loss than what you eat, but overall health definitely does not "have nothing to do with what kind of food you eat."

leesaleesa
06-14-2012, 12:50 AM
I am so over blaming the food source for our diet woes. And I do disagree with you, michiruwater, that the average person cannot comprehend what a healthy diet is and how to go about obtaining one. There is far more knowledge available than in our parents time, and far more food choices.

People simply need to educate themselves, and take responsibility for their health. I have better nutrition than my parents, who are still quite healthy. Some people aren't as genetically lucky, but to just roll over and blame the food source and the general public's inability to understand the whole glycemic business is just another way to get out of taking ownership.

michiruwater
06-14-2012, 01:13 AM
That's funny you would say that, because people were a lot healthier in your parents' time. With all that knowledge, and with all those choices, we have never been unhealthier. You say an average person can comprehend a healthy diet and make those choices, but 40% of the population of this country - and I am strictly speaking of the US - is overweight. Soon, the average person will be overweight.

There is so much misinformation, so many lies in food packaging, and so many new things that are difficult to understand at best, that educating oneself in the modern food climate can seem overwhelming. A person can look at a carrot and say, yes, a carrot is healthy, but then there are all the additional questions: Do I need to buy this carrot organic? Why or why not? If I don't what could happen to me? And that's just a carrot. A person could buy something labeled as 100 calories, something that will help you on a diet!... but then that item is purely made out of sugar and chemicals. But they're trying to eat what they want on a diet, right? How could that be bad? It's not as simple as you seem to think. It can be very, very confusing.

And I am not sure if you're accusing me or the public of not taking ownership. I have absolutely taken ownership and educated myself, and I think that's clear. And I absolutely think the population needs to take ownership, but a lot of them simply don't want to, and they're going to pay for it in many ways. I cannot tell you how many I know who simply don't want to know what it is they're eating, because then they might have to actually stop eating things that are bad for them.

nubka
06-14-2012, 01:23 AM
People who have gastric bypass lose huge amounts of weight, and it has nothing to do with what kind of food they eat, it has to do with restricting calories. Certain foods may make you hungrier and cause you in turn to eat more, but calories ingested and calories burned will always be the key to weight control.

I agree. I had this surgery four years ago, and have lost over 100 pounds. I still eat a crappy as I ever did, I just can't eat as much... :lol:

MacMadame
06-14-2012, 04:43 PM
Most people eat by habit and conditioning. If the types of foods that are readily and cheaply available are ones that encourage us to eat more, then society as a whole is going to eat more.

The food industry has used science to figure out how to sell more of their product. It's not an accident that plates are larger, that food is more processed, that restaurants keep their temperature on the low side (studies show we eat more when the temperature is lower), etc., etc.

I'm all for personal responsibility but you can't deny societal factors either. Personal responsibility means understanding how environmental factors impact you so you can decide what to do about them. It doesn't mean pretending that they don't exist.

barbk
06-14-2012, 04:59 PM
Gary Taubes, who frequently writes on diet issues, wrote a book called "Why We Get Fat" that is fascinating. The "calories are calories" argument gets pretty seriously debunked, as does the efficacy of the government's food pyramid. (Taubes has serious credentials: (He) has won the Science in Society Journalism Award of the National Association of Science Writers three times and was awarded an MIT Knight Science Journalism Fellowship for 1996-97.[4] He is a Robert Wood Johnson Foundation independent investigator in health policy.[14] -- from wikipedia.)
http://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Get-Fat-About/dp/0307474259/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1339688898&sr=8-1

And "The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)" may be one of the better hours you ever spend watching a podcast. It is Stanford University Professor Christopher Gardner giving a lecture on the results of Stanford's very large, randomized, year long study of popular diets for weight loss.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZEdMAVo&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL0ABA7EB1D07FAA52
(He's also one of the most engaging lecturers you'll ever hear.)

Stormy
06-14-2012, 07:26 PM
There is so much misinformation, so many lies in food packaging, and so many new things that are difficult to understand at best, that educating oneself in the modern food climate can seem overwhelming. A person can look at a carrot and say, yes, a carrot is healthy, but then there are all the additional questions: Do I need to buy this carrot organic? Why or why not? If I don't what could happen to me? And that's just a carrot. A person could buy something labeled as 100 calories, something that will help you on a diet!... but then that item is purely made out of sugar and chemicals. But they're trying to eat what they want on a diet, right? How could that be bad? It's not as simple as you seem to think. It can be very, very confusing.

I feel like you're making it more complicated than it is. Bottom line....a carrot is healthier than a bag of Doritos. Whether that carrot is organic or not, it's clear to even a person that's not well educated in food that fruits and veggies are a better snack than cupcakes and cookies, and that grilled chicken is better than the Quarter Pounder with Cheese. To say the average person goes through that thought process and that just makes it "too confusing" to make a good choice, just sounds like an excuse.

I do too find it really aggravating when processed garbage (like anything in a 100 calorie pack, snackwells cookies, etc..) is marketed as a healthy choice. I guess eating 100 calories of cheeze its is better than eating a 300 calorie bag, ....but still. Processed garbage is still just processed garbage, no matter what packaging it's in. Is it really that difficult to discern this? When the ingredient list is full of things you can't pronounce, why does anything think that's good for you? I'd like to give the general population more credit than that.... :( :slinkaway

Prancer
06-14-2012, 09:35 PM
That's funny you would say that, because people were a lot healthier in your parents' time.

They were thinner and I would guess less likely to suffer from conditions related to obesity, but healthier?

I don't know if I agree with that or not.

Just as one example, my dad was diagnosed with high blood pressure when he was 17 years old. But there was nothing that could be done about it then, so he had high blood pressure for many years and died when he was fairly young because of all the damage he suffered before treatment was available. His mother never got treatment for her high blood pressure and died even younger.

Was he healthier than someone who has high blood pressure now?

Now you could argue, I suppose, that more people have high blood pressure now, but I don't know if that is true or not, either. For one thing, in my parents' day, people didn't go to the doctor nearly as often as they do now, so a lot of people went undiagnosed and untreated. For another, the definition of "high blood pressure" has changed over the years and with those changes, the percentage of the population with high blood pressure has changed, too.

Another example: I have asthma and have had the exact same symptoms since birth, but I was not officially diagnosed as asthmatic until I was 19 because the definition of asthma changed. As near as I can tell, I inherited the condition from my dad's mother (the same one who had high blood pressure) and there is evidence that asthma has been in her family line for generations. But not one of those people was ever actually diagnosed with asthma because people weren't back then. Statistically, of course, more people suffer from asthma now than they did in the past, but I wouldn't say that presents you with an accurate picture of asthma in previous generations.

Gil-Galad
06-14-2012, 10:11 PM
Gary Taubes, who frequently writes on diet issues, wrote a book called "Why We Get Fat" that is fascinating. The "calories are calories" argument gets pretty seriously debunked, as does the efficacy of the government's food pyramid. (Taubes has serious credentials: (He) has won the Science in Society Journalism Award of the National Association of Science Writers three times and was awarded an MIT Knight Science Journalism Fellowship for 1996-97.[4] He is a Robert Wood Johnson Foundation independent investigator in health policy.[14] -- from wikipedia.)
http://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Get-Fat-About/dp/0307474259/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1339688898&sr=8-1
There are so many different studies about this.
This one is from 2009 (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2009-releases/diets-weight-loss-carbohydrate-protein-fat.html).

That's funny you would say that, because people were a lot healthier in your parents' time. With all that knowledge, and with all those choices, we have never been unhealthier. You say an average person can comprehend a healthy diet and make those choices, but 40% of the population of this country - and I am strictly speaking of the US - is overweight. Soon, the average person will be overweight. Nah, it's quite similar in Germany and Britain. It's just a really jinxed situation. We want to eat, for tens of thousands of years we've been wired to consume high-calory food, because it was rare and when it was there, it was supposed to be eaten. Our bodies are wired to really pack on the pounds when there is a food surplus, and they are wired to reduce the amount of energy our bodies need, the very moment we reduce the food intake (that's why lots of diets are doomed to fail). Then there is capitalism. Mr. Capitalism wants us to eat. While it also wants us to look like barbie dolls. We are wired to move around - a lot. Walking, running, hunting - kilometres over kilometres. But our modern lifestyle dictates that we have to be able to arrive at places as fast as possible. Mr. Capitalism is so kind and provides us with the fastest and most enviromentally destructive means to get to places, while offering us awfully expensive gym memberships, because an active lifestyle is important. During those often non-physiological work-outs at the gym we blow out our knees / shoulders / elbows, because high-energy aerobic and whatever you can do there - not really part of the physiological equation. So Mr. Capitalism to the rescue - there are excellent orthopaedic surgeons, who are worth every penny, and really expensive but so very useful rehab programs. Unfortunately during the recovery process you are bound to pack on the pounds, all that surplus of food and the ad for the new wrap / burger / taco place looked so very seductive. But don't fret about it, there is an awesome new gym around the corner and this great new diet program you can sign up for, just $92 a month!

Actually, it's a miracle that mental health issues aren't more rampant than estimated.

michiruwater
06-14-2012, 10:26 PM
When the ingredient list is full of things you can't pronounce, why does anything think that's good for you? I'd like to give the general population more credit than that.... :( :slinkaway

I can not tell you how many times I have been shopping with people my age and they load their carts up with things like that. I absolutely do not give the general population more credit than that. These things are marketed like crazy and are advertised as healthy and most people do not look beyond that. I look at the shopping carts of people around me and am consistently appalled by how few people actually buy whole foods.

leesaleesa
06-14-2012, 11:29 PM
I feel like you're making it more complicated than it is. Bottom line....a carrot is healthier than a bag of Doritos. Whether that carrot is organic or not, it's clear to even a person that's not well educated in food that fruits and veggies are a better snack than cupcakes and cookies, and that grilled chicken is better than the Quarter Pounder with Cheese. To say the average person goes through that thought process and that just makes it "too confusing" to make a good choice, just sounds like an excuse.

YES. A quarter pounder with cheese tastes better, but a bag of dried lentils is not only healthy and cheap, I can make it part of ten meals. I want doritos, but that bag of dried prunes is about the same price and lasts longer, is healthy, and blunts my sugar cravings. A dozen eggs is part of twelve meals, much cheaper and healthier than one serving of fast food.

But lets make it out of our reach, and leave to experts to tell us we will only fail, so why try? Once we are all fat and blaming everyone but ourselves, will there be participation trophies handed out? Screw the prunes and carrots, and someone else can go out into the Florida heat and put five miles in for me. I want a trophy.

agalisgv
06-14-2012, 11:41 PM
A dozen eggs is part of twelve meals, much cheaper and healthier than one serving of fast food. I'm not trying to cheer fast food, but you can get a burrito at Taco Bell for under $1. I've yet to see a dozen eggs that cheap (and as you mentioned, the eggs are only "part" of a meal).

Hate to say it, but in more than a few cases, you can buy fast food cheaper than you could make it.