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taf2002
06-17-2012, 05:31 PM
It's not really a theory at this point. There are tons and tons of studies that support it. We've actually known about this "famine effect" since about WW II. (The body interprets a diet as a famine and responds by trying to get you to gain back all your weight and then a cushion (usually 10 pounds) so that it has wiggle room for the next famine.)

I'm not arguing the yo-yo effect of dieting (famine), I'm just saying that if you have always eaten healthily & have never starved yourself your body won't react that way. IOW, if whoever made meals for you as a child treated food as fuel & served sensible portions of food that had good nuitrition, & made sure you didn't eat more than what your body needed & also encouraged plenty of exercise & plenty of rest, you probably have a healthy attititude about weight.

My mother wanted to be a home ec teacher. She did have 1 yr of college but her folks couldn't afford to send her for a 2nd term. But she still had a lot of knowledge about nutrition (for the times) & even though her menus would be considered fattening by today's standards, they were healthy with lots of home grown ingredients & red meat only once or twice a week.

All but one of my siblings raised their kids the same way. Snack for their children were things like apples, carrots, raisins. One brother has a daughter who was allowed to eat as many snacks as she wanted & never did anything remotely like sports or exercise. Out of 7 nieces & nephews and 8 great-nieces & nephews, guess which one is overweight?

taf2002
06-17-2012, 05:32 PM
Sometimes compassion is used by those with psychological issues to manipulate the response of others around them. And that tends to happen a lot with people with eating disorders. There's a narcissistic quality to eating disorders, and continually framing debates around that only feeds the disorder. Enabling that isn't really compassion.

Sorry for the double post but really?

cruisin
06-17-2012, 06:12 PM
Sometimes compassion is used by those with psychological issues to manipulate the response of others around them. And that tends to happen a lot with people with eating disorders. There's a narcissistic quality to eating disorders, and continually framing debates around that only feeds the disorder. Enabling that isn't really compassion.

And sometimes people fancy themselves experts in fields they clearly don't understand. And you clearly know little to nothing about eating disorders. I'm not going to get into this any further with you. You don't know what your'e talking about, but you will insist that you do. And DO NOT psychoanalyze me, you are not qualified.

cruisin
06-17-2012, 06:16 PM
I agree with your overall assessment that cruisin's obsession with control is indicative of a larger underlying problem - and I wouldn't be surprised if she already knew that, actually, based on many past posts about this topic - but I don't think chastising her for giving other people advice will really help, agal. You're so analytical, and I can absolutely relate to that as I have similar tendencies, but the above post really indicates a total lack of compassion to me.

Also, sorry for the double post. But, I was going to comment that it is not unusual for people who have had or have eating disorders and other addictive behaviors to help others with similar problems. It's a matter of "I get it". And thank you for your understanding. I never really had control issues until the eating disorder started. That chemically alters you. I am not classified as eating disordered now. I am classified as restrictive. Which is a method of dealing with some eating disordered patients. Just like abstinence is used to treat chemical addiction.

MacMadame
06-17-2012, 06:20 PM
I am not sure if MacMadame is saying one can't improve their weight condition - I wouldn't agree with that. But to crusin's point about being neurotic - yes. Once your physiology has been impaired, I think you do have to be neurotic or OCD or have a super human commitment to keep the weight off. It is not the same thing as just picking the red shoes over the black ones.
I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying once you get to a certain point, it's extremely difficult. And, if you want to do it, you have to understand what's going on with your body.

I didn't say you have to be neurotic. But, if you don't repair the damage to your body (i.e., get weight loss surgery), then you do kind of have to be neurotic. They've interviewed people who have lost 100 pounds or more and kept it off about how they do it. And their answers could basically be summed up as "I became neurotic about my weight". They spend much energy and time managing their weight and are constantly fighting the battle.

So I guess I agree with you (and crusin) on that one.

Another way to be successful is to engage in extreme exercise. Most of the people on the Biggest Loser who successfully kept their weight off are ones who have entered the fitness profession (so they are teaching classes -- i.e., exercising -- for hours every day) or who have gotten into endurance sports -- again that means exercising many hours every week.

In fact, most of the people I know who lost 70-150 pounds and kept it off without having weight loss surgery all got into triathlon. Everyone else I know personally who has lost that much weight has gained it all back. Studies show that only 1-5% keep off that kind of weight loss for more than 2-5 years so what I am seeing isn't contradicting that.

Also, in those twin studies mentioned above, there is at least one study where they found twins where one weighed significantly less than the other (at least 30 pounds difference) and they found that when this happened it's because the thinner twin engaged in a lot more exercise.

So exercise can help a lot. But not 30 minutes of moderate exercise a couple of days a week. We're talking more like 10 hour or more a week. And not moderate, but intense exercise. Like going on a 6 hour bike ride every weekend and running 2 hours at least once a week.

The average person just isn't going to make exercise that kind of a priority. Though I can say from personal experience that it's a lot more fun to exercise 10 hours a week than it is to obsessively weigh yourself every day, measure/weigh all your food, record it in a food journal, etc., etc.


I'm just saying that if you have always eaten healthily & have never starved yourself your body won't react that way.
Except for a lot of women, when they start to go through puberty, their bodies change and eating a normal amount of food doesn't satisfy you. It hasn't been studied that much but what seems to happen is that the body's "full" signal kind of shuts off. This causes the girls to chunk up so they are 10-30 pounds overweight. It's probably some ancient survival mechanism.

If the adults around them react to this the wrong way such as encouraging them to diet, that puts them on the yo-yo dieting train and all bets are off then. And that is how many adults react including professionals such as your family doctor.

Even if they don't chunk up, they are being bombarded with messages that their body isn't good enough to the point where 8 year olds are talking about dieting. If they actually do it, chances are they will end up as an adult with a weight problem.

Also, some other studies have been done that has shown that the satiety center of the brain is less active in the obese than in the normal weighted. In other studies, it was found that their brains also have a different reaction to food stimulus -- one that is more intense. They haven't figured if these brain differences is a cause or a result of obesity but my person experience is that they are a cause.

Btw, in these studies, the people who had WLS didn't have that extreme reaction to food stimulus any more while people who lost the same amount of weight without WLS still did. Yet another reason why they mostly gain it all back IMO.

So it's not just about being educated about food. Eating healthy and moving your body absolutely helps. Building good habits as a child absolutely helps. But some people's bodies are just different -- they are broken.

You wouldn't say that someone with Type 1 diabetes (their body doesn't make insulin) just had to have grown up with a healthy attitude towards food and they'd never get that. They have a disease.

It's the same with most of the obese. There is something going on with their bodies that isn't going on with the non-obese. It's not just about making poor choices and causing the obesity. In fact, it seems pretty obvious from the science that the stuff that causes obesity causes the poor choices.

Of course, seeing obese people make poor choices just reinforces the idea that they brought all this on themselves and all they have to do is stop making those choices (or never have made them in the first place), but we know from looking at the science that being obese not just a behavioral issue.

michiruwater
06-17-2012, 06:30 PM
You wouldn't say that someone with Type 1 diabetes (their body doesn't make insulin) just had to have grown up with a healthy attitude towards food and they'd never get that. They have a disease.

Oh, but you wouldn't believe how many people have implied this to me. I don't snap over many things, but on each occasion that someone has told me that if I weighed less or ate better I wouldn't have Type-1... well, they quickly learned the difference between Type-1 and Type-2, to say the least. Not all diabetes is created equal!

numbers123
06-17-2012, 06:45 PM
Except for a lot of women, when they start to go through puberty, their bodies change and eating a normal amount of food doesn't satisfy you. It hasn't been studied that much but what seems to happen is that the body's "full" signal kind of shuts off. This causes the girls to chunk up so they are 10-30 pounds overweight. It's probably some ancient survival mechanism..

I can not find the reference, but IIRC when puberty begins and throughout the childbearing years, women's bodies do need additional stores of fat (which is meant to get the body through periods of famine and to help support a growing fetus)
We need to focus on some of the body's need for certain types of foods - fats, sugar, salt - and how we can obtain a healthy portion of those in our daily lives rather believing than all fat is bad, all sugar is bad, all salt is bad - criticizing those who eat those things. We need to get a picture of a normal size person in our minds and in the media, recognize different body types - not try to make everyone conform to the media's concept of the perfect body.
When we focus on the faults of others: they need more control, they need more exercise, they need to put more of these items in the diet, your diet plan is all wrong, etc. we are unable to address the real problem.

MacMadame
06-17-2012, 06:48 PM
Oh, but you wouldn't believe how many people have implied this to me.
I believe you. After all, I had a boss who thought people get cancer because they have "bad thoughts". :lol:

But I think most people understand that some things are a disease and not a personal choice.



When we focus on the faults of others: they need more control, they need more exercise, they need to put more of these items in the diet, your diet plan is all wrong, etc. we are unable to address the real problem.

^^THIS

Badams
06-17-2012, 07:01 PM
Oh, but you wouldn't believe how many people have implied this to me. I don't snap over many things, but on each occasion that someone has told me that if I weighed less or ate better I wouldn't have Type-1... well, they quickly learned the difference between Type-1 and Type-2, to say the least. Not all diabetes is created equal!

Ugh...indeed. I used to be a personal trainer in a gym and I would work all day long. Naturally, I would eat there and get my evening shot. So many people would ask if it was steroids, (so dumb) and I would say no, I'm diabetic. Then they would, without fail, tell me I look like i take care of myself so why do i need shots? Or they would say, you're not fat! *sigh* I still hear that stuff all the time now that I think of it.

agalisgv
06-17-2012, 07:09 PM
Sorry for the double post but really? Last post on this, but yes. Narcissism has been shown to be correlated with eating disorders for some time (meaning, those with underlying narcissism can manifest that through eating disorders).
The pattern of dimensional associations between narcissism and eating pathology was highly similar across the clinical and nonclinical groups, with the narcissistic defenses playing the strongest role. The poisonous pedagogy style ("bad you" defense) was positively associated with restrictive attitudes toward eating, while the narcissistically abused style (poor me defense) was positively associated with restraint, eating concern, body shape concern, and body weight concern.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17080446

The narcissistically abused style (poor me defense) often seeks to elicit sympathy in order to maintain attention on the sufferer through their disordered eating. IOW, you may think you're expressing sympathy for the eating disorder, but in reality you're feeding the underlying narcissistic disorder which is what is fueling the disordered eating. And with that I'll leave it alone.


Back on topic, my sense is there isn't a one-size fits all "cure" to obesity. I think it may be like autism in that there are likely many different causes and triggers that result in a recognized spectrum of disordered weight/eating levels. But what those causes and triggers are for any particular person will vary tremendously. Thus, any interventions/treatments will need to be individually specific. For some, it may be a simple case of eating less and exercising more. For others, they may be using food to self-medicate. For others, it may be a chemical imbalance or some other underlying health issue. And for yet others, they may be eating a very different diet that what their community is accustomed to (this is prevalent in Native communities and presumed to be one of the reasons why not only obesity is epidemic throughout Indian Country, but also cancers like esophageal are disproportionately represented). And in many cases, I would think there are multiple factors compounding each other (including all the factors MacMadame mentioned), so there's no easy fix in addressing the problem.

Just my .02

Matryeshka
06-17-2012, 07:14 PM
Re calories on stuff: At first it makes you think, especially if you've been buying food you think is a healthier choice at a restaurant, and realize the "non-healthy" option actually has less calories. Then, like anything else, you get used to it, and you just don't "see" it anymore or it doesn't bother you. NY has had lables for quite a while. Haven't seen a lot of fast food closures as a result. Generally, people know it's bad for you. You eat it because you want it, just like any other bad habit.

I don't think ANYONE knows definitively why people gain weight, why obesity has skyrocketed, or how to lose it effectively. Weight involves a lot of factors--personal habits, genetic habits, culture, and economics. If there was a simple answer, it would have been found. We just think we know the answers and speak authoritatively because we've either lost weight or have never had a weight problem. I've heard calories-in, calories-out, and from someone who has tried diet after diet, that's the least effective for me. I do think it works though for some people. Low fat doesn't work particularly well for me either. Low carb diets work really well for me, but not for others. Some do well with simple portion control. I've had OK results with that.

For example on the food, a good friend of mine is from upstate New York. She was honestly shocked when people here talked about the unhealthiness of cheese and extolled the value of seafood. She can tell you every bad, horrible thing about eating seafood and how cheese is really good for you. On average, Asians eat a diet high in rice. In parts of the Western world (save Italy, lucky skinny beyotches :P ), rice/pasta have been linked to weight gain. The French eat a diet rich in cream and butter and are generally slender. I would LOVE to be French. :shuffle:

My baby brother and I were raised at the same table and ate the same things. He grew up skinny. I did not. BUT. He's already at risk for diabetes and has high cholesterol. I'm not even close to either (shockingly, the worst problems of obesity seems to have passed me by. I am a mystery to my doctor. :lol: Though I am fairly active--I can go up quite a few steps in fairly high heels without being winded, so maybe that balances out my weight somewhat).

For me, I think high fructose corn syrup is the answer for *my* weight problems. When I look back in diets that have been successful, a fact that I've overlooked is that the amount of high fructose corn syrup was cut back dramatically. Atkins--when you read the actual diet, not some blog on the internet or what your best friend told you about it--by its very nature cuts out A LOT of foods that have HFCS. When I live by myself and can afford organic and can buy bread that does not have it (many breads, especially sliced white bread and hamburger buns are sweetened with it), I lose the same amount of weight. The single best thing I did for myself was cut out ALL soft drink, diet and regular, and have kept off over 50 lbs well past the 5 year mark because that's something I can easily control. I also rarely drink fruit drinks for the same reason. But that doesn't work for everyone. There are plenty of Americans who eat quite a bit of the stuff and don't struggle with weight and are perfectly healthy.

Everyone does stuff that is not exactly good for them. We focus on weight because it's easy to see. You can't necessarily look at someone and know if s/he is an alcoholic, a smoker, has unhealthy dietary habits if s/he is skinny. We spend a lot of time focusing on weight=health, when that's not the case all the time.

taf2002
06-17-2012, 08:09 PM
Last post on this, but yes. Narcissism...yada yada yada.
Just my .02

My "oh really" wasn't disputing any facts, it was "are you really going there?" IOW, your post was an insult...calling someone narcissistic to their faces is rude. And since I doubt you know her in RL, it really isn't appropriate to psychoanalyze her, even if you were qualified to do so.

Prancer
06-17-2012, 08:39 PM
The French eat a diet rich in cream and butter and are generally slender. I would LOVE to be French. :shuffle:

The French Are Getting Fatter, Too (http://www.npr.org/2011/08/06/139042221/the-french-are-getting-fatter-too)

:shuffle:

And French Women Do Get Fat (http://www.thatsfit.com/2009/11/11/french-women-do-get-fat/)

Diane Mars
06-17-2012, 08:42 PM
That's an interesting story and blog, regarding this discussion : http://neverseconds.blogspot.co.uk/

MacMadame
06-17-2012, 08:43 PM
my sense is there isn't a one-size fits all "cure" to obesity.
I think that's pretty clear, actually. :)


Re calories on stuff: At first it makes you think, especially if you've been buying food you think is a healthier choice at a restaurant, and realize the "non-healthy" option actually has less calories. Then, like anything else, you get used to it, and you just don't "see" it anymore or it doesn't bother you.
I'm not sure I agree with that. In fact, we just got back from Outback Steakhouse and I definitely ordered based on the calorie count -- because my first choice wasn't tasty enough to justify all the calories it had. And I've been seeing the calories on menus for years now.

Now does it impact my choice every single time I order out? No. Sometimes I just don't care. Or something has 1000+ calories but I know I'll only eat 1/3 of it and give the rest away so it really doesn't matter.

It's the same with labels. I don't read them every time I go food shopping. But I do read them a lot and it does impact what I put in my shopping cart.