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RD
05-24-2012, 04:59 PM
I would be surprised if she did. I just love her, she is one of my favourite ladies' ever. But I don't think her melt-down at Worlds can be totally blamed on injury, and I think she reached her peak last season.

Hopefully the US ladies field will get stronger - a situation in which Alissa becomes the Phaneuf of the US is really not desirable.

If she could come back twice as strong I would be overjoyed, but I really don't expect it to happen.

A Czisny fan who is realistic about the situation. :)

Yes, I agree that she likely has already peaked. Besides, knowing how fragile she seems to be mentally- I wonder if she'll ever recover from that horrific worlds. If she wants to get back to where she was, she'll have to forget that ever happened (at the same time while learning from it). Personally, I think her best days are behind her, but if she wants to continue, that's up to her.


We don't have 3 spots because we don't have a single consistent ladies skater (since Kwan and Cohen) who can be counted upon to medal and skate well enough at Worlds to get those 3 spots without worry.

Maybe not, but this is still not good enough to explain why we sent INJURED skaters to Worlds two years in a row. Who knows if things would have been different if they were healthy, or we sent healthy alternates (especially considering how close the top US ladies are)? USFS is dropping the ball somewhere IMO. Why isn't it monitoring its skaters between Nationals and Worlds to prevent/minimize this risk? Or, at the very least, checking up on them briefly before the event? Contrary to what some people think, this whole situation isn't even entirely about the three spots. This goes BEYOND the Czisny issue and looks at the bigger picture. If nothing is done, mark my words- this WILL happen again (and probably soon).

ETA:


My opinoion is that USFSa has always been slow to respond to changes, any change. It is not just one situation about Alissa, it is a long string of incidents that I am fed up with. If only the federation shows some baby steps in the right direction, I would have been contented. But if Usfsa is like the fans, then pobably any suggestions about possible monitoring are quashed, becuase any discussion about overall improvements is seen as a criticism against the Czisny team, which is jus t one situation among many. So any suggestion for improvement is followed by many reasons not to change, and nothing happens.

There's something in that statement...and I do think USFS is slow to respond to change. After all, NJS wasn't used at Nationals until 2006.

minignome
05-24-2012, 05:22 PM
I think what people really want to know is, is the usfsa monitoring their skaters when there have been known injuries. It was known Jeremy and Alissa had injuries this season.

Alissa injured her calf at the gpf, then had a poor showing at challenge cup. Did the usfsa inquire about a possible existing injury?

Jeremy was injured this season and withdrew from 4cc and then had a poor showing at CC. Again, did the usfsa inquire about an injury?

Rachael admitted injury at gpf in the past, the usfsa should have monitored her, did they?

These poor results could have possibly have been prevented, that the main concern.


The thing is, athletes compete injured a lot, and in some cases do just fine or exceptionally well. So how is someone going to determine when an injury is "too severe"? And what will the back lash be when the replacement has poor results?

The whole discussion on USFSA being able to monitor/change the world teams at their discretion makes me shake my head.

Folks complain that there is "holding up" in the PCS to manipulate the world teams already -- which implies a lack of trust in USFS or at least their ability to select judges. Now you want to grant the same organization, who you don't trust collectively to judge a single competition, the ability to throw out a competition result based on some individual or committee's perception of how an athelete is doing in training?

I realize that it's different because figure skating is a judged rather than a objectively measured sport, but, in a lot of sports it's the results of the Nationals competition/Olympic trials and ONLY the results of that competition that chose the team. An athlete pulls a hamstring (ala Maurice Greene) in the track & field finals--there goes their shot at the Olympics. If Michael Phelps has the stomach flu the week before Nationals and doesn't finish in the top 2 for his races, he isn't going to the Olympics. Harsh, but, the facts of life.

If you want to develop athletes with the ability to perform under pressure, you have to make them perform under pressure -- not, oh well, you were fourth at nationals, but we think you'll do better at world's because the silver medalist has a strained calf muscle so we'll send you. And I would think the athletes would much prefer the method of -- you deliver the goods and you make the team rather than, you deliver the goods and we'll think about sending you assuming that your coach can convince us that your in good enough shape and we think your practicing well enough.

Hind sight is 20-20, and it's easy to look at paper scores later and say well, if so-and-so did this while such-and such-did that we would have won our three spots back. The beauty of sport is that it doesn't matter what everyone thinks will happen on a given day, it matters who pulls out all the stops that day. That's why they actually hold the competition instead of everyone sending in videos of their best performance. That's what gives you the Paul Wylie moments at the Olympics, or Petra Majdic (Slovenian Cross Country skier who won Bronze after breaking her ribs in a practice run)--those times when someone defies expectations and delivers a
truly extraordinary performance.

Jammers
05-24-2012, 05:48 PM
I just hope the top Senior Ladies bring it this year and leave Alissa in the dust it would best for US Ladies skating because Alissa is NOT the answer. She's been at this how long now? 25 is not when most female skaters peak at.

jlai
05-24-2012, 05:51 PM
I think going by nationals is fine in general,and yes some athletes do fine competing injured. But ultimately US simply does not have a precedent or procedure for pulling severely injured or unready (for whatever reason) skaters out of competition unless the skaters willingly do so.

Perhaps another matter is that there isnt a comp close to worlds that skaters can go to easily to show they are ready. During fall and summer there are many chances to do so. Afer January not so much. So If that is the case, perhaps the discussion should be on logistics and not how unreasonable monitoring is in general, for there is already plenty of talk about using summer and sr B comps more effectively for monitoring purpose.

Perhaps if an alternate has beenpresent all along then the skater who isnt ready is more likely to pull out if the alternate looks fit and ready. Of course, there will be the alternate's travellin g expense to consider.

UGG
05-24-2012, 06:50 PM
I hope you are right; I'm basing my statement on their results so far and what these skaters have demonstrated up through Worlds 2012, not potential for future results (or future skaters who have not been to Worlds). I equally respectfully hope you are REALLY right and they come through! :lol::cool:

And my apologies to Emily, my mistake.

Oh LOL don't apologize!

I just wanted to point it out. I was never a big fan of hers-she really fairs no better than who we have today, she was just lucky she had Kimmie there to help as well. If she had gone to worlds with one of the US ladies today, we would not have three spots back.

UGG
05-24-2012, 06:56 PM
Even if we got the third spot back last year with Mirai going instead of Rachel, I really think we would have lost it again this year with a World Team of Ashley, Alissa, and Agnes.

euterpe
05-24-2012, 07:28 PM
Even if we got the third spot back last year with Mirai going instead of Rachel, I really think we would have lost it again this year with a World Team of Ashley, Alissa, and Agnes.

Ummm....no. Zawadski's 4CC score would have placed her 7th at Worlds and the US would have gotten back the 3 spots.

PDilemma
05-24-2012, 07:44 PM
Ummm....no. Zawadski's 4CC score would have placed her 7th at Worlds and the US would have gotten back the 3 spots.

Yeah. Because she would have got the exact same score at Worlds.

How long has the IJS been in existence? And people still think you can compare scores across comps that easily?

Alissa's score at TEB was 179.15 which would have placed her fourth above Ashley at Worlds. Scores don't transfer quite like that, though, and never have.

Cheylana
05-24-2012, 07:50 PM
But look at who got ninth place at Worlds this year -- Makarova. Did she even crack 90 for her truly awful freeskate? The bar was very low this year. It's ridiculous to say Agnes couldn't possibly have managed ninth place.

I don't think the USFSA has necessarily done anything wrong, but they certainly have run into a streak of bad luck since they went from three spots to two. When you have a team of three, you can afford a weak link, like the 2004 and 2005 teams (Jenny Kirk - sorry, Jenny!). But imagine if the team was just Michelle and Jenny, or just Sasha and Jenny. And to have 50% of your Worlds team injured two years running...unfortunate!

Skittl1321
05-24-2012, 08:22 PM
Ummm....no. Zawadski's 4CC score would have placed her 7th at Worlds and the US would have gotten back the 3 spots.

Since we are operating in an alternate timeline, couldn't we also just say if Zawadski had gone to World's Alissa wouldn't have been injured and would have taken the title??:lol:

demetriosj
05-24-2012, 08:53 PM
I just hope the top Senior Ladies bring it this year and leave Alissa in the dust it would best for US Ladies skating because Alissa is NOT the answer. She's been at this how long now? 25 is not when most female skaters peak at.

She has been left in the dust at Nationals for quite a while, however the judges just seem to ignore the other more deserving skaters at Nationals. Why?, it really makes no sense.

kwanfan1818
05-24-2012, 08:56 PM
Since we are operating in an alternate timeline, couldn't we also just say if Zawadski had gone to World's Alissa wouldn't have been injured and would have taken the title??:lol:
Had Czisny been replaced because of injury, it would have been by Zawadzki, the first alternate. That's why Zawadzki is relevant in this context.

euterpe
05-24-2012, 08:57 PM
Since we are operating in an alternate timeline, couldn't we also just say if Zawadski had gone to World's Alissa wouldn't have been injured and would have taken the title??:lol:

My post was based on the idea proposed by another poster that if Mirai had replaced Rachael in 2011 and they earned 3 spots, Agnes would have gone to Worlds too, and Ashley+Agnes would have kept the 3 spots, regardless of Alissa's debacle.

Skittl1321
05-24-2012, 09:34 PM
Had Czisny been replaced because of injury, it would have been by Zawadzki, the first alternate. That's why Zawadzki is relevant in this context.

The post I was replying to was based on the notion of 3 spots:

I really think we would have lost it again this year with a World Team of Ashley, Alissa, and Agnes.


I was just pointing out the absurdity of the "what if" game. In addition to the scores not being comparable between competitions, and having no idea how Agnes would have done, there is just no way of knowing what may have been different. Maybe if Agnes had gone, she and Ashely would have collided on practice ice, taking them out of the competition. 'What If' can go on forever, you can't just change one event and assume all else would stay the same. Maybe if Mirai had gone last year instead of Rachel she would have won, and her confidence as world Champion would have allowed her to win Nationals again this year, making Alissa the third spot, not Agnes. Who knows...

pingu
05-24-2012, 10:06 PM
pingu, perhaps you could answer this for me? I'm just a (former) skater, not a physiotherapist, but is my theory that the injury could have been caused from her overdoing the jumps when they started to disappear possible? It always seemed to me that when a jump went awry, I'd start trying harder. For example, if my flip suddenly became inconsistent, I'd automatically try to picker harder, torque more, and generally try to muscle the jump more than usual. I'd also start trying more of them than I'd normally do because the whole "muscle it more" thing doesn't work. Of course at this point my coach would step in and say I need to stop doing that, but it was still what I instinctively went to. I've found that to be a really common reaction among other skaters.
This injury is caused by overuse. This means that after you repeat a movement (torsion, in this case) thousands and thousand of times, according to your hip anatomy, you could get injured. It's not just cause by the jumps torsion, but by every hip rotation that is performed in figure skating (steps, spirals, spins, moves in the field,...). Figure skating is a sport that requires a continue rotation of the hips, that's why you have a torn labrum in the hip and not, for example, in the shoulder.


Is it possible that Alissa's poor jump technique, frequently off-axis, exacerbated her hip problems? It may also be that her extreme flexibility was also a factor. Yuka and Jason could not possibly correct such ingrained problems.
No. See the explanation above.


I wonder if this particular injury is more prone to female skaters than to male skaters. I don't recall hearing about this injury with the men skaters.
I read some articles and they don't say that it is more frequent in one sex rather than the other one. Maybe in figure skating it may be more frequent in females because they are required a higher flexibility at the hip.


Five heavy falls in the free skate can't have helped, though.
She fell on the butt. She didn't twist/subluxate/dislocate her hip.


I think these kind of issues should be researched more. I don't think there is enough research of skating injuries and how to avoid them. If certain jumps harm the body more than others, then those jumps could be banned from competition, imo. I think especially the lutz is a harmful jump for the knee.
I completely agree. Unfortunately, there are some side-effects of sport that only come out after years. This means that you can actually understand if a movement is particularly dangerous after many years it has been performed. We will find out the effect of the quads on the body in about a decade, IMO, and it will be too late for many skaters to do anything. This of course applies to many sports. IMO high level sport can be as detrimental for the body as assuming a bad posture for decades (because of school or work). This of course doesn't mean that people don't have to play sports, even at an elite level. For every action we do there is a direct consequence, and if someone loves figure skating than for him/her everything is worth it :)