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Marco
06-20-2012, 04:09 AM
Top SB with none or one:
Voronov-NHK
Hendrykx-TEB
Rogozine-NHK
Dmitriev-CoC
Ge-none

Armin is still not on this next-in-line list for GP spots, so what are people arguing?

Sylvia
06-20-2012, 04:24 AM
Armin is still not on this next-in-line list for GP spots, so what are people arguing?
It's already been explained in posts #385 and 401.

Recapping the TBA host spots currently available...
Skate America: men, pairs, dance
Skate Canada: men, ladies, pairs
Cup of China: men, ladies, dance
Rostelecom Cup: men, ladies, pairs
TEB: men, ladies, pairs, dance
NHK: none

Ziggy
06-20-2012, 04:20 PM
Someone non-scratchy with any luck.

:lol:

:EVILLE:

kwanfan1818
06-21-2012, 12:09 AM
The bottom line about Dornbush is that with his Top 24 WS (20th), he was guaranteed one spot, and with his #27 SB, under this year's alternates rules, would have been in the first group of substitutes had he not received a second in the initial selection. (Under last year's rules, he would have been slotted automatically into one of Contesti's two spots.)

Dornbush earned 237 WS points at 4C's, without which he wouldn't have been Top 24 WS, although if instead of putting him so high on the alternates list for 4C's, USFS had sent him to one of the last Senior B's, and, for example, he beat at least Ponsart at Triglav Trophy, he still would have been top 24 WS. However, the reason he is 27 SB is his performance at CoC, not 4C's.

Mahbahnoozadeh is 41 in SB, and he would have had to have scored almost 30 points higher than his SB at NHK to have made top 24 SB, or he would have needed 585 WS points at 4C's -- 4th place or higher in a field with Chan, Takahashi, Rippon, Miner -- to be top 24 in WS. He couldn't have placed Top 24 WS with two wins worth of points (500, the max) at Senior B's. It's not impossible that he would have scored almost 30 points higher than his previous SB (NHK) under an international panel at 4C's -- he did score almost 225 at US Nationals, but last season he scored higher at US Nats (~215) that 4C's (~200) -- in order to place Top 24 SB with a score at 4C's, but it wasn't likely.

mag
06-21-2012, 01:02 AM
entire post.

I'm not privy to the inner workings of the USFSA, but, is it possible, that this is the analysis that went into deciding the alternates for 4CC's? Assuming kwanfan1818 is correct ;), their decision really does make sense.

Of course, don't let any kind of analysis get in the way of a good :lynch: :rofl:

kwanfan1818
06-21-2012, 01:10 AM
I give USFS very little credit in general, but in hindsight, it gives them plausible deniability against the theory that they only chose Dornbush for 4C's because of the club he came from. It doesn't explain why they wouldn't deal and lobby to get Mahbanoozadeh a spot for GP, since Top 75 are eligible in the first round: SC did get a non-host spot for Rogozine (29 on SB list), the Russian Fed for Voronov (25 on the SB list), and the French Fed threw a bone to Hendrickx -- after all, Van der Perren's guaranteed spot (24 SB) was back in the hopper after his retirement -- but they were in the first group of alternates anyway. As Sylvia pointed out several times, there's still an open host spot at SA.

morqet
07-06-2012, 03:13 PM
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3584

ISU GP general announcement has now been published - as far as drafting in skaters to fill empty spots goes:

If any slot(s) remains open and if all skaters/couples as defined in paragraph 2.2. a) (7-12 at Worlds), b) (split couples) and c) (returning skaters) above have been selected for one (1) event, the Organizing Member may select any skater/couple with a top 75 seasonal best score to fill the open slot(s).

Sylvia
07-06-2012, 06:43 PM
Re-posting from the U.S. Men's thread:

In accordance with the 2012 - 2013 ISU Grand Prix Announcement, Evan Lysacek has until August 1st to agree to terms with U.S. Figure Skating for his return to compete on the Grand Prix @ 2012 Skate America.

Relevant excerpts from the GP Announcement:

2.3 Minimum Score for Grand Prix events
Each entrant to the Grand Prix six (6) events must meet the minimum total score (SP/SD + FS/FD) to be included in the entry or the alternate list (for exceptions see paragraphs 2.1.c) and 2.2.).
For the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating season 2012/13, the minimum scores are:
 Men 159.66
 Ladies 113.43
 Pairs 120.90
 Ice Dance 109.59

Skaters/couples who have scored at least the above mentioned limit in an ISU Championships, ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and Final (Senior or Junior) between July 1st, 2011 and May 31st, 2012 are eligible for selection into the Grand Prix events 2012/13 or in the alternate list.

The minimum score for this season is 3/5 of highest score per discipline at the 2012 World Figure Skating Championships in Nice, France.

Skaters/couples, placed in the top 75 Season’s Best (season 2011/12) are placed on the alternate list. However those who need to score the minimum score as listed above can do so in the following International Competitions only:
 U.S. Senior International 2012 – Salt Lake City (Pairs included in the competition)
 Nebelhorn Trophy 2012 (Pairs included in the competition)
 Ondrej Nepala Memorial 2012 (Pairs included in the competition)
 Finlandia Trophy 2012
 Cup of Nice 2012 (Pairs included in the competition)
...
3.1 Confirmation of Participation of Seeded skaters/couples
The ISU Members must confirm the participation of the seeded skaters/couples in the two (2) events to the ISU Secretariat by August 1, 2012. If a seeded skater/couple does not participate in the event(s) for which they are designated, there will be no substitute event(s).

3.2 Confirmation of Participation of Invited skaters/couples
The invitations for participation for skaters/couples, besides the seeded ones, will be forwarded to the ISU Members concerned through the Organizing Member of the respective ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating event. The Members of these invited skaters/couples must confirm participation to the ISU Secretariat, and the Organizing ISU Member by August 1, 2012.

So if Lysacek wants to compete at Skate America, is he required to obtain the minimum score in one of the Senior B competitions listed above or is the GP minimum score waived for host picks?

kwanfan1818
07-06-2012, 10:15 PM
(From first pass review): Changes in the 2012-13 GP Announcement, apart from the obvious, like references to this year's documents, minimum scores, season years, and event places and dates:

1. General

Pairs no longer are excepted from participating in Pairs GP and JGP (The skaters themselves can skate in singles or dance in the other.)


2. Designation of the Skaters

2.1 Seeded skaters/couples

a: No longer have option for third event.
b: If there are vacancies in the seeded list, reverts back to next ranked skater/team at 2012 will become seeded.
c: Comeback skaters

Are given priority for "up to 2" events if they announce and confirm in writing that they'd do two before the annual Selection Meeting.
No longer have to be on the official lists (SB, WS) to qualify.
Would be considered for host spot.



2.2 Invited skaters/couples

b: "Return of a Split Couple - "Returning Split Couple"

Defined as Top 7-12 of Worlds in the past two seasons (2010-11 or 2011-12) with old partner
May be chosen as a host pick and as a pick by another federation.
Inherits SB score with old partner.
Must confirm partnership in writing by the annual Selection Meeting.
Does not need a minimum score.



c. "Return of a ranked skater/couple "Return Skater/Couple"

Defined as previously in top 7-12 two (2010) and/or three (2011) WCs ago, but did not compete at all/was injured last season (2011-12).
Must confirm intent to skate in writing by annual Selection Meeting.
May be chosen as host pick and by another host.
SB from last competing season used.
Does not need minimum score.



e. Only gold medalists from ISU JGPF are eligible [from all JGPF medalists].
f. "It is not mandatory for the Organizing Member's skaters/couple to fulfill the criteria of the minimum score but it is strongly suggested." [from- initial selection needs minimum score, but replacement of replacement doesn't, which, in practice last season included "TBD"]
Split couple only to alternate list removed [was 2.2.f.]


2.3 Minimum Score for Grand Prix Events

States explicitly that it's the minimum total score (SP/SD +FS/FD).
Calculated on 3/5 (60%) of highest score from last Worlds [from 2/3 last season]
There are five events in which to earn minimum GP scores: US Senior International, Nebelhorn, Ondrej Nepala, Finlandia, Cup of Nice, with Pairs competition listed for all but Finlandia [from six last year, including NRW and Graz]


3. Confirmation of Participation

Seeded and invited skaters confirmation deadline is 1 August [from 15 Aug]


4. Points/Ranking Order

Third event language removed


6. Technical Details for the Individual Events

Short Dance info is now a reference to the appropriate documents.


7. Scoring System / Officials / Replacements

7.6 Replacements

Come-back skaters moved to the penultimate spot on the alternates list and are limited to those in the 7-12, not seeded category [from the top of the list]
Split couples are ranked among themselves by SB with previous partner and are at the top of the list, followed by Top 24, Top 75, come-back skaters, winners of the five GP minimum qualifying Senior B's.
References added, so that they didn't contradict themselves, for the most part.


This is where it gets tricky: it explicitly says, "In ranking order" for the Top 24 SB, but then says that all of the skaters/couples on the alternates list will be grouped in sets of five, which is contradictory. Either the Top 24 SB are given a second event in Top 24 order (if they already aren't assigned, they'd be the fourth from their country, or it's a back-to-back assignment), and then everyone else is grouped in 5's, or the "ranking order" distinction is moot.

Don't these people ever use flow charts or tables to figure out all of their scenarios? :drama:

9. Technical details for the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final
References to tech documents added in lieu of SD detail.
Judges nomination deadline is 28 November [from 1 December]


Re-posting from the U.S. Men's thread:


Relevant excerpts from the GP Announcement:


So if Lysacek wants to compete at Skate America, is he required to obtain the minimum score in one of the Senior B competitions listed above or is the GP minimum score waived for host picks?
Host picks no longer have to meet the minimum score (2.2.f), although it is "strongly suggested." It says the skaters "should" be on the Top 75 SB list when first selected, but it doesn't say "must."

USFS could have submitted his name for the General Selection deadline, but he isn't obligated to use the one-time come-back skater option, and he didn't qualify for any other federation to pick him, because he didn't have a Top 75 score nor was a seeded come-back skater. If he isn't considered a seeded come-back skater, then, theoretically, he'd be just like any other host pick, so it depends on whether "should" is another suggestion, not a rule.

l'etoile
07-07-2012, 12:01 AM
Thanks for the detail, kwanfan1818!

I guess it depends on whether USFS really wants Evan or not.

HisWeirness
07-07-2012, 05:12 PM
Quote from the announcement:

Skaters/couples entered for an event of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating may not participate in the same discipline of an event of the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in the same season. Only skaters participating in different disciplines may enter into both the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in the same year/skating season.

Amy03
07-07-2012, 08:13 PM
This is really the same situation. If you believe he was "screwed", it wasn't 4CC and the Grand Prix. It was 4CC which created the situation with the Grand Prix. USFSA doesn't control Grand Prix assignments other than the assignments to Skate America. Armin didn't receive any GP assignments because of his season's best and World Ranking. Dornbush's season's best is 27th while Mahbanoozedeh's is 41st. Dornbush's world standing is 20th (which is why he got the assignments) and Mahbanoozedeh's is 43rd. As far as GP selection (except for the Skate America host spots), the fact that Armin beat Ricky at US Nationals is totally irrelevant. However, Armin's WS and possibly SB would have been higher had he gone to 4CC although there is no way of knowing whether it would have been high enough for GP selection.

thanks for the details about armin i have been wondering for a while wheter he is going to attend the GP series

Frau Muller
07-09-2012, 05:36 PM
As postd above by HisWeirness -

Quote from the announcement:

Quote:
Skaters/couples entered for an event of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating may not participate in the same discipline of an event of the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in the same season. Only skaters participating in different disciplines may enter into both the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in the same year/skating season.

So will this be known henchforth as "The Sui/Han Rule" (or, alternately, the "Taka/Tran Rule")?

julieann
07-09-2012, 08:44 PM
As postd above by HisWeirness -

Quote from the announcement:

Quote:
Skaters/couples entered for an event of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating may not participate in the same discipline of an event of the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in the same season. Only skaters participating in different disciplines may enter into both the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in the same year/skating season.

So will this be known henchforth as "The Sui/Han Rule" (or, alternately, the "Taka/Tran Rule")?

Glad there is more room for jr and sr teams at the GP. I remember Savchenko and Morozov competing in both so it's been going on long before S/H. I just hope S/H don't plan on competing in dance too! :lol:

kwanfan1818
07-09-2012, 09:00 PM
Ah, but S/H could compete Juniors in Dance and Seniors in Pairs :lol: