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morqet
05-20-2012, 07:58 PM
I defended them their first season in seniors when they left Zhulin. Nikita claimed that they did work hard, but did not get enough supervision because Zhulin was busy with his TV show. Nikita said that he had to go look things up online and watch youtube videos to find the correct way of doing things. It seemed plausible to me and I gave them the benefit of the doubt, but this year they were not outstanding with Morozov so now I'm beginning to believe the rumors about their work ethic were true. They had nominal increases in their placements (1 place at Nats and Euros, 2 places at Worlds) but they again showed up unprepared during the GP and never really got to a great level all season. I also read that they didn't really train for the WTT. Very disappointing. With their talent and relative inexperience, they should be making big leaps. Their lifts are still atrocious.



Honestly, I think for a team of their age, they are progressing fine. They had solid debuts at Euros and Worlds last season, and built on it this year not just in terms of placement, but also the scores they got throughout the season. The fact that the next Olympics is going to be in Russia has distorted expectations and put ridiculous pressure on them - were they to medal there they'd be the youngest ever Olympic medallists by quite some way, and the idea that they would be serious contenders for gold there has always been ridiculous in my opinion. 2018 is a much more realistic goal for them. (IIRC Elena has spoken in the past about finding it hard to deal with the way that people build them up so much when they do well, but immediately turn on them when they make mistakes.)

And they really have come on a long way this year. I'm no longer going :yikes: at Nikita's twizzles or their lifts - obviously there's still a lot to work on, but these things take time and you can't expect a miraculous transformation overnight, but look at their free dance at Europeans and compare it to the previous season. I'd agree that the attitude wasn't quite right at the start of the season, but I think that the score in the SD at Europeans was the kick up the backside that they needed - I was at TEB, Europeans and Worlds and the way they conducted themselves off the ice was very different at the later competitions, they seemed much more focused. I really hope they can produce good programs next season - I'd expect things to be very tight with B/S probably getting more "modern" programs from Zhulin than they had this year.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
05-21-2012, 03:49 AM
Thanks Maofan. :) I have some catching up to do.

Cherub, I think Linichuk would be perfect for I&K. She pulls no punches and from what I understand demands hard work from her skaters. I don't think she or Gennady would allow them to coast as they have been. I also think her style of choreography would suit them as well.

aka_gerbil
05-21-2012, 05:03 AM
I defended them their first season in seniors when they left Zhulin. Nikita claimed that they did work hard, but did not get enough supervision because Zhulin was busy with his TV show. Nikita said that he had to go look things up online and watch youtube videos to find the correct way of doing things. It seemed plausible to me and I gave them the benefit of the doubt, but this year they were not outstanding with Morozov so now I'm beginning to believe the rumors about their work ethic were true. They had nominal increases in their placements (1 place at Nats and Euros, 2 places at Worlds) but they again showed up unprepared during the GP and never really got to a great level all season. I also read that they didn't really train for the WTT. Very disappointing. With their talent and relative inexperience, they should be making big leaps. Their lifts are still atrocious.

I remember reading Nikita's quotes last year after they left, then reading quotes from others in Zhulin's group (P/B maybe?) that gave a quite different account of things. If I'm remembering this correctly, whoever it was said that Zhulin was usually there and on the ice himself with the teams (and it was an amount of time right on par with what other coaches are actually on the ice with their skaters for), and if he wasn't there, then Volkov was. The point being, there was plenty of coaching attention and/or coaches around all of the time.

Like you said, they showed up unprepared for the GP this year, etc., culminating in the reports that they more or less didn't train between Worlds and WTT. The evidence certainly seems to indicate that the work ethic rumors are true.

Like Carmen, I see all the talent in the world in I/K, but if they're not going to put in the time and hard work, even the greatest coaches and most outstanding choreography isn't going to help. I want to see this team suceed, but frankly, if they're not going to work hard, they don't deserve to win.

I/K seem to idolize V/M. I wish they could make the connection that part of the reason V/M are so outstanding is that they work incredibly hard...


I don't think Morozov's travelling circus is the right fit for them. Who is the biggest hardass in ice dance? Linichuk? They need a coach who will ban them from going on vacation, take away their cell phones, basically treat them like children. :lol: Their programs need to be immaculate by the Russian test skate, and they should be doing B events to check their levels before the GP (if V&M don't consider themselves too good for that, why should they?).



Cherub, I think Linichuk would be perfect for I&K. She pulls no punches and from what I understand demands hard work from her skaters. I don't think she or Gennady would allow them to coast as they have been. I also think her style of choreography would suit them as well.

I don't think the travelling circus aspect of Morozov's group is a right fit or good thing for anyone.

I'm also a huge fan of the idea to send them to Linichuk. I've stopped short of saying it that way in the past, but I'm sharing a brain with Cherub on part of the reasoning: they need someone to treat them like kids, take away the vacations, and cell phones, and in general, stick it to them like there's no tomorrow. Obviously, they shouldn't need to be handled in that manner, but it's the only thing I can think of. I just suspect that if anyone is going to lay down the law the way it needs to be with them, it would be Linichuk. (And, seriously, no one is having to do that with the Shibs right now. Nor did V/M, P/B, W/P, or D/W or any of a gazllion other teams need that sort of oversight and handling at the ages that I/K are now... or, you know, ever.)

I do also agree with Carmen though that, in addition to the being strict part of things, Linichuk's choreography would work well for I/K. I know she's gotten some flack the past few years, but love for coaches and choreographers seems to come and go in cycles, and she will eventually fall back in favor. ;) But, at any rate, I think her dramatic style would work well for I/K. Plus, at this stage in the game, I/K still need a really good technical coach for ice dance fundamentals, and Natalia and Gennedy are extremely good at that.

caseyedwards
05-21-2012, 05:13 AM
Linichuk's reputation is in the toilet. Even if you say that Shabalin's injury limited all choreopraphic possibilities she still produced very poorly recieved dances for them and B/A in the OD and FD. Then the programs for P/G were not well recieved either.

DORISPULASKI
05-21-2012, 01:27 PM
True. But at least most of the time P&G were able to skate for levels effectively. They need more speed though.

OTOH, Linichuks efforts for C/L-J were absolutely :eek:

Cherub721
05-21-2012, 08:28 PM
I/K seem to idolize V/M. I wish they could make the connection that part of the reason V/M are so outstanding is that they work incredibly hard...

Word. And it's surprising to me that they don't since I&K trained with N&K before the 2006 Olympics and then Elena trained with V&M and Shpilband... so they should understand very well how you train to become Olympic champions.



I do also agree with Carmen though that, in addition to the being strict part of things, Linichuk's choreography would work well for I/K. I know she's gotten some flack the past few years, but love for coaches and choreographers seems to come and go in cycles, and she will eventually fall back in favor. ;) But, at any rate, I think her dramatic style would work well for I/K. Plus, at this stage in the game, I/K still need a really good technical coach for ice dance fundamentals, and Natalia and Gennedy are extremely good at that.

Linichuk can be a great choreographer... I would drool if they got programs like DenSta in 2006 and 2007. But then there is the Aboriginal/Moldovan massacre in 2010... so there would need to be program monitoring from the fed for tasteleness. :P

In terms of technik Linichuk would be great for them. She could fix the little issues like Elena's butt sticking out all the time, unison problems, and lift positions. Tanith spoke very highly of Linichuk's attention to those details. It's all moot, I guess, because unless something personal happens between Morozov and I&K, they are probably not changing coaches before Sochi. :( Fun to speculate, though.

Macassar88
05-21-2012, 09:21 PM
Word. And it's surprising to me that they don't since I&K trained with N&K before the 2006 Olympics and then Elena trained with V&M and Shpilband... so they should understand very well how you train to become Olympic champions.




Linichuk can be a great choreographer... I would drool if they got programs like DenSta in 2006 and 2007. But then there is the Aboriginal/Moldovan massacre in 2010... so there would need to be program monitoring from the fed for tasteleness. :P

In terms of technik Linichuk would be great for them. She could fix the little issues like Elena's butt sticking out all the time, unison problems, and lift positions. Tanith spoke very highly of Linichuk's attention to those details. It's all moot, I guess, because unless something personal happens between Morozov and I&K, they are probably not changing coaches before Sochi. :( Fun to speculate, though.

Maybe when Morozov cheats on Elena?
But I think that the most important thing is that they stop being treated like they're the second coming. RSF shouldn't hold them up if they aren't working hard. Anyway if bobrova and soloviev take back Russian number one, maybe ik will wake up.

caseyedwards
05-21-2012, 11:21 PM
True. But at least most of the time P&G were able to skate for levels effectively. They need more speed though.

OTOH, Linichuks efforts for C/L-J were absolutely :eek:

P/G could reach level 4's on some things but step sequences was not above 2and went down to 1 at COR 2011.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2011/gprus2011_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf

I forgot they also coached F/S! Maybe that's all that needs to be said! LOL. I just remember people thinking the programs were bland. The Emigrants program didn't seem to have lots of vocal detractors like B/A and D/S.

I have forgotten about C/L-J.

L/K just seem to be in a severe coaching slump that may be unrivaled in history.