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Eislauffan
05-19-2012, 10:31 PM
Thus my confusion ;). What happens when a skater switches federations - and then wants to switch back?

The skater can switch back but has to observe any possible waiting period. Italy would need to release him, too, but he doesn't need to wait as he didn't compete for Italy in the past two seasons.

Since he still holds French citizenship (I assume) maybe he doesn't even need the release.

kwanfan1818
05-19-2012, 11:26 PM
This was a very clever move on Gorshkov's part. If released publicly from Iliushenchkina's side,, the diaries could have been explosive and there could have been calls to investigate Pavlova's rink and to release Iliushechkina immediately.

This way, he took the initiative and could spin it the way he wanted, and he took a page out of the Cinquanta SLC playbook and came up with a proactive solution that brushes aside serious issues and makes the Russian Fed looked concerned and generous: they will give her a new partner -- although I'd love to know exactly who this world-class skater they've been hiding is -- and send her to Moskvina, who knows how to deal with traumatized female pairs skaters. At the same time, she looks hysterical, impulsive, and ready to give up the fatherland, and Pavlova is on record as saying she tried to talk to Iliushenchkina about her eating, but she couldn't do anything if her skater was in denial and resisted. (I hope LI can contact Suzuki.)

Very clever damage control.

She'd has no shot at Sochi in Russia, and she'd be dependent on the Russian Fed for GP host picks and Senior B's over the two seasons she'd be sitting out waiting for a release. The Russian Fed paying for everything is the advantage of taking them up on their offer, but she'd be more likely to help France in the team event post Sochi.

Her last international competition was NHK in November 2011; with a release she could start international competitions for France as soon as this Fall. France could apply for an exception under Rule 109 Paragraph 5 if Russia won't release her for two seasons (2.5 years from her last competition. Whether it would be worth it to the French Fed to take on the Russian Fed that way is questionable, but it might be tempting since France has two reliably strong disciplines, Dance and Men, and Iliushechkina/Kocon could mean not taking an automatic last in Pairs.

bardtoob
05-20-2012, 01:13 AM
If Lubov gets citizenship from France (which she will need anyway if she wants to compete in Sochi), does that mean she does not need to be released by Russia?

Russian citizenship has different obligations than other countries' citizenship, and those obligations persistent until one can "prove the absence of Russian citizenship".

kwanfan1818
05-20-2012, 01:15 AM
Is one of those obligations to represent one's country in sport?

Aussie Willy
05-20-2012, 01:20 AM
Quite disturbing. I hope at the end of the day she can do what she wants.

Vagabond
05-20-2012, 06:27 AM
Pertinent portion of ISU Rule 109 (http://www2.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-203191-220414-166536-0-file,00.pdf):


2. a) In principle, a Skater may compete only as a member of the Member of the country of which he is a citizen;

b) a Skater may compete for the Member of the country of which he is not a citizen if he fulfils the following conditions:

i) he has resided for at least one year in that country and has been permitted to compete for that Member by the National Association of the country of which he is a citizen, or he has resided for at least one year in that country and he (or his parents if he is not of age) has applied for citizenship in that country;

ii) before July 1st immediately prior to his first International Competition as a member of the Member, he has not competed in any International Competition or ISU Championship for another Member during the twelve (12) preceding months;

iii) before July 1st immediately prior to his first ISU Championship as a member of the Member, he has not competed in any International Competition or ISU Championship for another Member during the twenty-four (24) preceding months;

iv) Any denial of a request for permit by the Member submitted in accordance with sub-paragraph (i) above may be the subject of a request to the Council by the involved Skater or any involved Member for exceptional permission as provided in paragraph 5 of this Rule;

c) in the case of a pair or an ice dance couple, one partner at least must be a citizen of the country of the Member for which the pair or dance couple competes. The other partner may be a citizen or resident of a country of any other Member. The residence and permit requirements and the waiting periods stated above in paragraph 2.b, (i), (ii), and (iii) and in paragraph 3 do not apply to such partner. However, if such partner has already represented another Member, regardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies;

....

3. If a Skater, who has already represented one Member in an International Competition or ISU Championship, intends to compete in the future for another Member, regardless of the grounds on which the possibility of such change is based, such Skater shall be subject to the waiting periods set forth in subparagraphs 2 b), (ii) and (iii) above.

....

5. Exceptions to paragraphs 2 & 3 of this Rule may be granted by the Council of the ISU, which may also enter a competitor for an event (see also Rule 115, paragraph 5 and Rules 130 and 131). A competitor nominated by the ISU does not count in the quota of the country of his citizenship or residence. The Council may also reject an application from a Member for a permission that a Skater who has or had foreign citizenship may compete for that Member, although the formalities and requirements stated in this Rule have been met, if in the opinion of the Council granting such application would be contrary to the purpose and spirit of the Rule. (e.g. in case that a Member tries to “import” several athletes with foreign citizenship, in particular when such athletes should form a new national team of such Member or its substantial part)....

I find it difficult to believe that Kocon would ever have renounced his French citizenship. (In fact, I have some vague recollection that he has some Italian ancestry, so he may have had Italian citizenship before he ever teamed up with Nicole Della Monica). IINM, even if he did, he could get it back easily.

Kocon has already sat out a year, so, if he is still a French citizen, he can skate pairs for France whenever he wants.

Iliushechkina moved to France earlier this year. The date she started living there is the starting point for the one-year minimum period for sitting out competitions. However, she did compete in two Grand Prix events in 2011, so she has to sit out the entire 2012-13 season. At that point, since she has apparently already applied for French citizenship, there is nothing the Russian Federation can do to stop her because they can't stop her from competing.

IIRC, Marina Anissina, Lloyd Jones, and Vanessa James all obtained French citizenship fairly rapidly, so there is a good chance that Iliushechkina can obtain French citizenship before the next Winter Olympics.

Now, as yourselves, how likely is it that the Russian Federation would send Iliushechkina and whatever partner they might team her with to Euros or Worlds next season? Not very, if you ask me. So, at most, if she stays with Kocon, she misses out on a few Grand Prix events next season and maybe in 2013-14. Big deal.

kwanfan1818
05-20-2012, 06:39 AM
Pertinent portion of ISU Rule 109 (http://www2.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-203191-220414-166536-0-file,00.pdf):

c) in the case of a pair or an ice dance couple, one partner at least must be a citizen of the country of the Member for which the pair or dance couple competes. The other partner may be a citizen or resident of a country of any other Member. The residence and permit requirements and the waiting periods stated above in paragraph 2.b, (i), (ii), and (iii) and in paragraph 3 do not apply to such partner. However, if such partner has already represented another Member, regardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies;


Iliushechkina moved to France earlier this year. The date she started living there is the starting point for the one-year minimum period for sitting out competitions.

Rule 109 2c, which you quote and add emphasis, contradicts this, since the residency provision is Rule 109 2 b 1, which does not apply to an "other" (non-citizen) partner. The waiting period has nothing to do with residency since she is a non-citizen pairs skater, but all to do with her last competition at NHK in November 2011*, since Kocon holds French citizenship.

*I received a PM with the correction.

Libertango
05-20-2012, 10:40 AM
France could apply for an exception under Rule 109 Paragraph 5 if Russia won't release her for two seasons (2.5 years from her last competition. Whether it would be worth it to the French Fed to take on the Russian Fed that way is questionable, but it might be tempting since France has two reliably strong disciplines, Dance and Men, and Iliushechkina/Kocon could mean not taking an automatic last in Pairs.

I think that's a very good point. The french fed has refused to release skaters in the past for Russia and the other way round. They've also invested $$$ on James/Cipres (and sped up V. James' citizenship in 2 years). Yes Popova/Massot skated badly at WTT but they can do so much better. J/C and P/M almost got France 3 spots at Euros this year!
Iliushechkina will need to get her confidence (and jumps) back and taking a bit of time off to gel as a team might be a good thing.

Vagabond
05-20-2012, 04:22 PM
Rule 109 2c, which you quote and add emphasis, contradicts this, since the residency provision is Rule 109 2 b 1, which does not apply to an "other" (non-citizen) partner. The waiting period has nothing to do with residency since she is a non-citizen pairs skater, but all to do with her last competition at NHK in November 2011*, since Kocon holds French citizenship.

The one rule doesn't contradict the other, it supervenes it.

If she hadn't skated in international competition this past season, she'd be subject two the 12-calendar-months rule. But she did, so she will to sit out a full season in order to skate for France.

Regardless, the difference between the two clauses doesn't make much difference to Iliushechkina unless the Russian Federation is actually going to send her to big events in the second half of the 2012-13 season.

Even if they could team her up with an outstanding partner, I wouldn't blame her for wanting to switch federations. As it is, Kocon's ISU Championship record in Pairs, with an inferior partner, is almost as good as Iliushechkina's.

kwanfan1818
05-20-2012, 06:06 PM
The one rule doesn't contradict the other, it supervenes it.
The rule contradicted your statement that her wait-out period is based on a year's residence. It's not, because she's an "other" skater in a pair or dance team.


If she hadn't skated in international competition this past season, she'd be subject two the 12-calendar-months rule. But she did, so she will to sit out a full season in order to skate for France.
That's not correct. There is only one rule that applies (2c), and that's "However, if such partner has already represented another Member, egardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies;" For her, that's one year from NHK 2011, which means November 2012.


Regardless, the difference between the two clauses doesn't make much difference to Iliushechkina unless the Russian Federation is actually going to send her to big events in the second half of the 2012-13 season.
There's no wait-out period for switching partners within the same Federation. She could get a host pick with another Russian partner for Rostelecom Cup -- she and Maisuradze never went to Worlds, so she never had a chance to place high enough (1-12) to qualify as a "Split Couple" for the alternates list -- and she could be assigned to any Senior B with a Russian partner. Were she to get a release before then, which Gorshkov said he wasn't willing to do, she could start skating in Senior B's after mid-November, beginning with Warsaw Cup.

Vagabond
05-20-2012, 06:21 PM
Yes, I see that now. But it's still not that much of a sacrifice, is it?

By the way, does anyone have any idea what skater the Russians could partner Iliushechkina up with if she does change her mind?

kwanfan1818
05-20-2012, 06:34 PM
No, that's one of the big mysteries. If they don't break up an existing top pair, and Kavaguti's not retiring yet, they'd have to go with a Junior, and it looks like they've already re-paired a handful of couples, some due to the woman's growth spurt.

It could be a case of "train with X for the next two years" in Moskvina's rink and then inherit Smirnov after Sochi.

Katarzyna
05-20-2012, 10:31 PM
This was a very clever move on Gorshkov's part. If released publicly from Iliushenchkina's side,, the diaries could have been explosive and there could have been calls to investigate Pavlova's rink and to release Iliushechkina immediately.
The move certainly is clever, almost too clever and smart. Personally I think the first big task for Russian Fed should have been a proper investigation of what was going on in Pavlova's group. In case it turned out that Iliushenchkina was exaggerating - don't let her go. The decision of RFSF would be really justified in such a case. :bloc:

But just in case things going on were bad enough that they might lead even psychologically healthy person to think of suicide, I think insisting on Iliushenchkina competing for Russia is simply inhuman. RFSF might argue a lot on how much money they invested in a skater but considering the young age of most athletes it's also their task & duty to keep an observing eye on their coaches and too ensure that their athletes have physically and psychologically healthy training conditions.:fragile: :sekret:

In any case I feel for Iliushenchkina - I hope she can find a solution to continue skating in a way she likes to do it. :(

Ziggy
05-20-2012, 11:14 PM
Kwanfan1818 - great analysis.

Gorshkov knew exactly what he was doing.

I really hope that Iliushechkina can find a way to get a release and skate with Kocon.

MacMadame
05-20-2012, 11:16 PM
The thing is, why should Iliushenchkina trust the RSSF? They only agreed to find her another partner after she found herself another one and asked to be released. Whose to say they will actually do what they say or that they will do it for now but later on ignore her situation and any problems she's having?

I think if they said to her "Come to Moskvina with your new partner and skate for us" that she'd have no complaint but they are promising her some nebulous partner in the future. If I were her, I'd go for the bird in the hand over 2 in the bush (Moskvina as coach being the other bird).