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cruisin
05-12-2012, 11:14 PM
Has someone claimed there is a perfect method of child rearing?

I don't think I claimed anyone did. I was expressing an opinion.

Lara
05-12-2012, 11:15 PM
I do have a question to put out. I was talking to a friend who has an infant and she sleeps with her baby. She said that babies can't always regulate their breathing, which can cause them to stop breathing while sleeping in their cribs. She said that co-sleeping can help a baby to keep a regular breathing pattern when sleeping and also help the parent be aware if the baby stops breathing. Does anyone know how valid this is?

Healthy babies can indeed have "periodic" or irregular breathing, but that's normal/not dangerous and should be outgrown as the infant grows.

Now if the baby stops breathing for more that 20 seconds, that's apnea which isn't normal (although very common in preemies). That would merit a medical evaluation and an apnea monitor would be provided as necessary.

I haven't heard of co-sleeping regulating breathing better, but whether that benefit would outweigh the risks is likely questionable. But this is coming from a conservative POV (as most residents' would tend to be, following AAP guidelines is pretty much drilled in training).

Southpaw
05-12-2012, 11:48 PM
However, the mother might have suggested a little less awkward pose.

I dunno, I was looking at her blog and she doesn't exactly strike me as the modest type.

agalisgv
05-13-2012, 12:26 AM
Well- I think that the fact that fake plastic breast and nipples filled with imitation human milk are fed to babies in public is disgusting! And it's a slippery slope. We'll soon have fake plastic penises being inserted in vaginas in public next! Where will it all end! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

IceAlisa
05-13-2012, 12:55 AM
Well- I think that the fact that fake plastic breast and nipples filled with imitation human milk are fed to babies in public is disgusting! And it's a slippery slope. We'll soon have fake plastic penises being inserted in vaginas in public next! Where will it all end!

Hate to break it to you but it's already happening. Check out the O'Farrell theater next time you are in San Francisco. ;)

Prancer
05-13-2012, 02:32 AM
You can watch the video and see for yourself. One of Dr. Sears' arguments in the link you posted is that the WHO recommends extended breastfeeding. Does it specifically recommend it for developed countries as well as developing countries?

I would also like to look at the studies that he mentions as I don't consider him an unbiased source (again, he has a book to sell).

Is there a specific age by which the benefits of extended breastfeeding (if they are valid, reliable and statistically significant) stop? Do they ever stop?

Excellent. Let us know what you learn.


However, I don't think anyone has suggested that Dr. Sears would come after anyone not practicing AP. :confused:

That was my hyperbolic way of saying I don't think I would find condemnation from Dr. Sears. IOW, while he thinks that AP is the best investment, I don't read that as he thinks it's the only way, which seems to be the way some people are.


If I wanted to prove that AP isn't the best, I'd cherry pick studies

So you would deliberately aim for a biased response? To what end? :confused:

kwanfan1818
05-13-2012, 03:26 AM
But yes, people do definitely lighten up when their kids start school--although that is about the time when you begin to realize not just that you aren't likely to do permanent harm to your child with every decision, but also that you don't have total control over your child's personality.
Many parents, except in places with a "one child" policy, have at least one more child before the first goes to school, and many parents have a better idea of how it works and what to sweat the second time around.

My friend who volunteered in an ER was responsible for making eye contact to calm down the parents who were there with their kids who were sick or had been in accidents, while the medical team worked on the children. She said you could always tell a first time parent: they were sure they were horrible parents, and it was all their fault, and she should call child protective services because the child wasn't safe with them, etc. etc., while second (and more) time parents would hand the team the limb and say they'd be in the lounge watching TV and to call them when it was sewn back on.


Or by the time he gets to the age where kids would make fun of him for this, the whole thing will have been completely forgotten, the cover will be too old to be on the internet, and no one will care.
When I first heard about this and saw the cover, my first thought was Toni Morrison's "Song of Solomon"'s Milkman, his nickname from when a workman spied his mother breastfeeding him longer than was considered appropriate.

I still remember the girl who peed on the floor in first grade, because of our bitch-of-a-teacher's rule that no one should need a hall pass for the bathroom within one hour after lunchtime. Her family moved because she was made fun of so badly. Kids don't forget.

What is weird about the cover is that it violates most of the feeding tenets on the Attachment Parenting site: even when bottle feeding they suggest cuddling positions, eye contact, and complete attention.

There was a fascinating episode on "This American Life" about a family who adopted a child who had been left in a crib with another kid in a Romanian orphanage until he was seven. One of the few ways his parents could get him to calm down emotionally, even as a young teenager, was to have him lie on the couch on their laps while they held him, making constant eye contact.

numbers123
05-13-2012, 03:27 AM
Same here. Bed sharing just takes on a different meaning when you have to do it. I love having my own bed and I think that if I ever have children, I probably won't have any qualms about putting them in cribs or bassinets.

I do have a question to put out. I was talking to a friend who has an infant and she sleeps with her baby. She said that babies can't always regulate their breathing, which can cause them to stop breathing while sleeping in their cribs. She said that co-sleeping can help a baby to keep a regular breathing pattern when sleeping and also help the parent be aware if the baby stops breathing. Does anyone know how valid this is?

I did a quick internet search, most of the documentation that co-sleeping regulate infants breathing patterns are from sites that use the Dr. Sears information. It was a quick search, but I did not find any medical journal publications that documented this.

heckles
05-13-2012, 03:55 AM
I said that if they had some frumpy mom breastfeeding her two year old in a nurturing environment, the cover would have gotten a lot less attention.

No way! A frumpy mom breastfeeding is comedy gold (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WAi2txkagVM/SymIWhSo1lI/AAAAAAAAHtU/yqF0n8obDH8/s400/attachment_parenting_nursing_two_kids_babies_breas tfeeding.jpg).

MacMadame
05-13-2012, 04:20 AM
Does Dr. Sears make an either/or argument like that? I haven't read a lot of AP stuff, but the impression I've always had is that the Sears' are pretty laidback about not thinking a whole lot of things are "necessary" and are very supportive of parents doing whatever they think works best for their families.
That's my impression too. And I read quite a bit of his stuff when my kids were younger.

It's the whole "do what works for your family" part that really attracted me to AP in the first place.


Does it specifically recommend it for developed countries as well as developing countries?
The WHO recommendations are generally for all countries. If they have recommendations that are for just one sort of country, they specify that in the recommendations.

This argument gets made a lot ... well, the WHO only recommends things for developing countries -- they don't apply to us in the US! ... except all my mommy friends in Europe and the UK (developed nations) all quote the WHO the way my US mommy friends quote the AAP.

What's interesting about WHO recommendations is that they are trying to make recommendations that work for everyone. Sometimes this leads to some strange compromises. Like their RDA for protein is really low compared to a lot of other health organizations and it's because a lot of poor countries couldn't make higher quantities so they are really recommending the bare minimum to get by rather than some optimal amount or some upper limit.


If it were truly that beneficial to nurse beyond that age, wouldn't the AAP make a more time-specific recommendation?
Only if you assume that all recommendations that come from organizations like this one (and the WHO for that matter) are based entirely on evidence and politics never comes into it. An assumption I'm not willing to make. :lol:

I remember when the AAP upped the recommendation from 6 months to 1 year and how controversial that was. It was said at the time in interviews that they couldn't recommend 2 years like the WHO does (though don't they recommend more now?) because it just wouldn't be accepted in the US. They implied that their thinking was: if we say 1 year, then hopefully we'll get moms to last to at least 6-9 months which is way more than average in the US and an improvement over what is happening now.

They were equally wishy-washy about male circumcision at that time too. (And probably still are.)

maatTheViking
05-13-2012, 04:57 AM
I did a quick internet search, most of the documentation that co-sleeping regulate infants breathing patterns are from sites that use the Dr. Sears information. It was a quick search, but I did not find any medical journal publications that documented this.

The nurse after I gave birth to mini Viking had him sleep on my chest when his blood sugar & temperature went down (he was 4 weeks early). He was all curled up on my chest on his belly, and I asked the nurse if it wasn't a danger since he was not on his back. She said that while on me, my breathing would remind him to breathe.

I don't think you would get the same benefits from co-sleeping with the baby beside you, and the hospital did recommend not to co-sleep.

I personally still think that there is almost no danger of non-intoxicated parent to roll on top of your baby, but that the co sleeping danger comes from other issues - such as adult mattresses being too soft too many pillows etc.

IceAlisa
05-13-2012, 05:54 AM
So you would deliberately aim for a biased response? To what end? :confused:

No, I am demonstrating that Dr. Sears has a financial incentive to tout his method and is not an unbiased source. You said Dr. Sears offers evidence that AP is the best investment and challenged me to prove that it isn't, so I showed what can be done to demonstrate the opposite. All you need is a database.

However, I haven't noticed anyone saying that Dr. Sears would condemn other methods. That's totally irrelevant. He just thinks/appears to think his is best. And he quotes the WHO to prove his point. I quote the study that shows the potential problem for the mother's health wrt extended nursing, i.e., low BMD.

In the end it means little either way.

MacMadame, ITA, you just choose whichever org, the WHO or the AAP suits your purpose, depending on the argument you are making. I believe the AAP is deliberately wishy-washy on both the length of breastfeeding and circumcision--it is done out of political correctness and not necessarily based on evidence. So you are absolutely correct--both the WHO and the AAP do not necessarily base their recommendations on great quality science.

But it sounds ever-so-impressive when you quote them.

Japanfan
05-13-2012, 06:52 AM
I rather doubt that the child in the cover photo will be traumatized - this cover will be forgotten before next Tuesday. If anything, the child will be traumatized if this style of parenting is not the norm in his society. Should his peers see the action, they might find it worthy of ridicule and shame the child.

I'm more concerned about the issue of breastfeeding in public being seen as a negative behaviour. Anyone remember the Applebees incident from a few years ago? A woman was kicked out of the restaurant for breastfeeding an infant with part of her breast revealed. Bill Mahr did a very nasty (IMO) and misogynistic routine about it.

Breastfeeding women protested and had a breastfeeding sit-in at Applebees.:P

Sally1214
05-13-2012, 08:17 AM
Just for the record: I am the mother of 2 adult children. They NEVER slept in the same bed as me. I slept with my husband. They slept in their bassinets/cribs from day #1.

Today, they are both well-adjusted, university-educated, HAPPY men with lives of their own.

My oldest son tells me that his friend (a new Dad) is sleeping on the couch because his wife is sleeping in their bed with their newborn. He's sleeping on the couch because he has to get up at 6 am to go to work, while she sleeps on the same time schedule as the baby. This has been going on for over a year! IN WHAT WAY is this good for their marriage??

Breast-feed as long as it's convenient for BOTH the Mom and baby. But, for Heaven's sake, use COMMON SENSE.

It's crystal clear to me that there are THREE people who have to be happy in this situation: Mom, Dad and Baby. BABY doesn't set all the rules. BABY will adjust to whatever Mom & Dad decide. As long as baby is fed when hungry; changed when needed, feels loved and comforted, s/he will be just fine.

New parents should never let TIME or any other pubished article EVER make them feel guilty or inadequate ... not for one second,

Zemgirl
05-13-2012, 08:55 AM
^^Nurse-in protests are hardly unusual - it seems like one company or another is always in the news for this. Personally, I believe that there should be clean, comfortable, quiets rooms for parents to use in public places like malls and big stores; I think it would be nicer for everyone, especially for the baby, to nurse somewhere quiet and private.

If attachment parenting works for all involved, fine. But it shouldn't be some kind of standard for everyone to aspire to, and I doubt it's the best style of parenting. I like the concept of the good enough mother, and I don't feel parents should hold themselves to impossible (or very difficult to achieve) standards. A friend of mine told me around the time she had her first child that she wanted him to be part of the family, not the center of the family. I think that's a good approach.

As for the Time cover, I think they've achieved exactly what they wanted.