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View Full Version : Peaked too soon. Programs at their best that should have won OG



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judgejudy27
05-21-2012, 04:57 PM
Ito had really good spins in the late 80s but they werent as good by 92. Kristi had very nice spins, but not super fast. I agree in 92 Harding had the best spins of all the top women.

skatesindreams
05-21-2012, 05:09 PM
BTW - Denise won the short and long at the Olympics in 1980...And finished fourth.

That proves the importance of compulsory figures at the time,
She was in 12th place after them.

skateboy
05-22-2012, 06:02 AM
Nobunari Oda at 2009 TEB. This program would have won Vancouver, I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jt9cH01j90

Marco
05-22-2012, 12:15 PM
Nobunari Oda at 2009 TEB. This program would have won Vancouver, I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jt9cH01j90

At a competition as important as the Olympics, I am sure he will find a way to do an extra combination or repeat a jump for the 3rd time... :shuffle:

gingercrush
05-22-2012, 12:26 PM
Denise was second in the Short.

mtnskater
05-22-2012, 01:44 PM
Harding's artistry was non-existent. Ito's pretty much the same. The judging panel at the Olympics is normally conservative in that respect (thankfully in my eyes.). Two marks are given, with technical prowess only part. With Kristi having a solid 3 lutz and toe combo with her superior artistry and program i am not sure Harding could have beaten her at the Olympics with thos programs given the lack of artistic marks.


As to Sale & Pelltier, "Love story" was a groundbreaking pairs program and one of the most memorable of all pair programs ever.....it really left an impression with their story on the audience. That program moved me to tears on several occasions. Pair programs rarely have that effect on me. "orchid" was great too but a little less reachable or relatable to an audience.

One medal winning performance if it had been done at the Olympics was Tanja Szewchenko (I may be misspelling). It was a Grand Prix event I think where she beat Tara and landed all the jumps.

PashaFan
05-22-2012, 04:37 PM
Harding's artistry was non-existent. Ito's pretty much the same. The judging panel at the Olympics is normally conservative in that respect (thankfully in my eyes.). Two marks are given, with technical prowess only part. With Kristi having a solid 3 lutz and toe combo with her superior artistry and program i am not sure Harding could have beaten her at the Olympics with thos programs given the lack of artistic marks.


As to Sale & Pelltier, "Love story" was a groundbreaking pairs program and one of the most memorable of all pair programs ever.....it really left an impression with their story on the audience. That program moved me to tears on several occasions. Pair programs rarely have that effect on me. "orchid" was great too but a little less reachable or relatable to an audience.

One medal winning performance if it had been done at the Olympics was Tanja Szewchenko (I may be misspelling). It was a Grand Prix event I think where she beat Tara and landed all the jumps.

I agree Love Story was a fantastic program but the mark of great skaters are that they don't have to go back to old programs as a safety net. Orchid needed more time. They should have trusted more in their own ability to move the audience no matter what they were skating to. I love how they skated in SLC but will always wonder what would have happened had they taken a chance on Orchid.
Tanja Szewcenko (I always spell it wrong too !) nearly beat Lipinski in the Grand Prix Finals 07/08. I really liked her Speed free program & it's such a shame she was too ill to compete in Nagano. I think she could have made top 6.
Another program that could have won an Olympic Gold medal was Delobel/Schoenfelders free dance that they had in the 08' Grand Prix series.
I loved how they skated to it & was sad that they could not show it at the Europeans or Worlds in 09'.

nuge
05-22-2012, 04:57 PM
Another program that could have won an Olympic Gold medal was Delobel/Schoenfelders free dance that they had in the 08' Grand Prix series.
I loved how they skated to it & was sad that they could not show it at the Europeans or Worlds in 09'.

Are you talking about Gig in the sky FD ?
It was amazing I loved it so much more than V/M PF :shuffle:

judgejudy27
05-22-2012, 05:06 PM
Harding's artistry was non-existent. Ito's pretty much the same. The judging panel at the Olympics is normally conservative in that respect (thankfully in my eyes.). Two marks are given, with technical prowess only part. With Kristi having a solid 3 lutz and toe combo with her superior artistry and program i am not sure Harding could have beaten her at the Olympics with thos programs given the lack of artistic marks.


The thing is when Harding landed all her jumps, including the triple axel, the judges always gave her high artistic marks. Look at 91 Nationals and 92 Skate America, 5.8s and 5.9s for artistic impression both times. I also disagree about Ito's programs not having any artistry, especialy her long program. Harding yeah pretty much, her music cuts and choreography that year were ridiculous, by 94 they seemed much improved, too bad she shafted herself with all the other nonsense that year.

Triple Butz
05-22-2012, 07:03 PM
Harding's artistry was non-existent.

That's ridiculous. Harding's presentation was not the mature, elegant package we've been trained to expect from our ladies, but Tonya was definitely a skater who listened to her music and worked with it. Tonya's jumps were impressive on their own right, but made even more impressive by the fact that she usually landed them on strong accents or the high point in a musical phrase:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buQXBXmjumU#t=49s

She also would include arm movements during her spins that would reflect musical gestures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPpvVEWosHc#t=3m50s

She also did some very interesting MITF/Choreography that was not seen regularly and reflected the music very well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPpvVEWosHc#t=2m14s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdC5G7CDvbI#t=4m02s

So, while her presentation may not have been your cup of tea, you can't deny that she had musicality.

FunnyBut
05-22-2012, 11:30 PM
Harding yeah pretty much, her music cuts and choreography that year were ridiculous,

I loved the 'Juraissic Park' part of her program. It was so brooding and ominous, like she was Tyrannasaurus stalking the competition with her gianormous jumps, like 'Ima gonna squish you, Kristi!' I could have done without 'Send in the Clowns', but 'Wild Thing' really suited her, too.

neptune
05-22-2012, 11:36 PM
Harding's artistry was non-existent.

That's kind of like saying that Pat Benatar's artistry was non-existent. What is "artistry" anyway? It seems to me that when most people think of "artistry" for female skaters, they're thinking of "Mariah Carey"-type artistry--i.e., soft, gentle, and BORING. :D Tonya's artistry wasn't the traditional "ladylike" artistry so many are used to, but that doesn't mean it was any less real or valid. Of course, she could have used more polish. But personally, I think her type of artistry was far more interesting than most of the stereotyped female artistry revered by the skating establishment.

Marco
05-23-2012, 03:15 AM
That's kind of like saying that Pat Benatar's artistry was non-existent. What is "artistry" anyway? It seems to me that when most people think of "artistry" for female skaters, they're thinking of "Mariah Carey"-type artistry--i.e., soft, gentle, and BORING. :D Tonya's artistry wasn't the traditional "ladylike" artistry so many are used to, but that doesn't mean it was any less real or valid. Of course, she could have used more polish. But personally, I think her type of artistry was far more interesting than most of the stereotyped female artistry revered by the skating establishment.

Just in terms of interpretation and musicality, she was clearly more successful and genuine than other top athletic skaters e.g. Ito, Slutskaya... Although I think her style didn't fully come through because of those weird music cuts and choreography.

judgejudy27
05-23-2012, 03:46 AM
I loved the 'Juraissic Park' part of her program. It was so brooding and ominous, like she was Tyrannasaurus stalking the competition with her gianormous jumps, like 'Ima gonna squish you, Kristi!' I could have done without 'Send in the Clowns', but 'Wild Thing' really suited her, too.

I agree with all you said, and about her 91 and 92 long programs, that was the thing. There were too many different themes of music and choreography that didnt go together. In the case it were more cohesive like her 94 programs it would have worked quite well IMO.

FunnyBut
05-23-2012, 04:14 AM
I think Harding and Denise Biellmann (who had the first triple Lutz) could have been competitive today.

.

I'm much more impressed with Harding's jumps than ANY of the women under COP. Yuna had a fantastic Olympics, but she did it without sal or loop. Mao landed more 3As, but they weren't the quality of Tonyas, she has an egregious flutz, and hardly every rotates the back end of a 3-3. Lipnitskaya might be the new wunderkind, but she getting her big scores by doing way too many 2A variations, a loophole that really should be closed.

Tonya had every triple through the 3Axel, she did them all with excellent quality, the lutz and flip both on correct and emphatically deep edges, and a 3-3 too.