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View Full Version : What does Ashley Wagner need to do to move up the ranks even further?



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judgejudy27
05-02-2012, 08:05 PM
Being on top of the podium in Sochi still seems a bit of a far fetched dream to be honest. She has Kostner, going into 2013 probably 2 or 3 Russians, Suzuki, all ahead of her. If Ando comes back strong, Asada gets her act together, or if Kim comes back even not so strong (her worst self nearly won the 2011 Worlds, she is in a different category), then them as well, although frankly I think 0 of the 3 will happen. In the U.S she has Gold, Zhang, and if she gets a fire again Nagasu all on her tail. Still with the determination she is showing and her recent improvement anything is possible.

I think she was robbed of the 2008 National title and that set her career back for years to come.

Chris_E
05-02-2012, 09:07 PM
Being on top of the podium in Sochi still seems a bit of a far fetched dream to be honest. She has Kostner, going into 2013 probably 2 or 3 Russians, Suzuki, all ahead of her. If Ando comes back strong, Asada gets her act together, or if Kim comes back even not so strong (her worst self nearly won the 2011 Worlds, she is in a different category), then them as well, although frankly I think 0 of the 3 will happen. In the U.S she has Gold, Zhang, and if she gets a fire again Nagasu all on her tail. Still with the determination she is showing and her recent improvement anything is possible.

I think she was robbed of the 2008 National title and that set her career back for years to come.

There are MANY what ifs for all the ladies mentioned. Kostner and Suzuki are getting up there in age, the young Russians are exactly that, Asada has been skating poorly for seasons it seems. If Kim comes back, agreed she is in a class of her own.

The important thing is that she keeps improving. She needs to start the next season with the technical content she ended this season with.

She most likely was robbed of that title in 2008, though I don't know if she would have been able to handle the pressure of that title at the time. Agreed that it did set her back for years.

Cheylana
05-02-2012, 10:17 PM
I don't see how being robbed of the 2008 US title (assuming she was in fact robbed) set Ashley back. I hate that victim mentality. Ashley had a chance to shine at 2008 Worlds -- didn't happen. She had chances to win 2009 and 2010 US Nationals -- didn't happen. If anything, maybe her coaching arrangements held her back. I'm glad she switched to Mr. Nicks because everything seems to be coming together for her now.

As for next season, I think Ashley should continue to think of herself as the chaser instead of the chased, even though she is the reigning US Champion, and not let herself be consumed by the pressures of defending the title. I'm sure Mr. Nicks has it all well in hand. :)

Jenna
05-02-2012, 10:50 PM
Ashley wasn't robbed in '08. Mirai had a fantastic short and a very good free to take the win.

The fact of the matter is...if Ashley hadn't had a double loop downgraded in the free skate in 2008, she would have been the champion.

judgejudy27
05-02-2012, 10:51 PM
I dont think she had any chance to win Nationals 2010. Her long program was about the best she could do and she finished 8 points behind Flatt and would have behind Nagasu too without the URs. Her short program would have been a good 4-5 points back of Flatt, Nagasu, and Cohen even without the lutz fall too. Maybe she could have eked out the team over Nagasu with a clean short and long only due to the 3 URs of Nagasu in the long, but that is it. She wasnt the best skater at that point, her improvements just hadnt kept pace with someone like Flatt's around then, and didnt have the momentum or favor with the judges of some of the others either around then. 2009 was her big chance, and 2012 was really her first big chance since then. 2011 it seemed like she was literally on the way out and wasnt even a U.S contender anymore.

Nagasu did not have a good free in 2008, she had a fall, another UR, and a couple of other mistakes, and probably should have even been below Zhang in the LP. Wagner's LP even with the one minor mistake should have easily beaten Flatt who she placed behind, and her short program should have been closer to Nagasu and further ahead of Flatt too. She was doing a triple lutz-triple loop that year!

Jenna
05-03-2012, 12:21 AM
How should it have "easily beaten" Flatt? Flatt's FS was flawless with seven triple jumps. Like I said, that downgraded double loop was a killer for Wagner.

Also, Nagasu had exactly two mistakes in that free skate. A fall on a double axel and a downgrade on the back end of a triple lutz-triple toe combination. She still landed five clean triple jumps, so I would consider that a good free skate.

judgejudy27
05-03-2012, 01:03 AM
Since Ashley's presentation is way better than Flatt, since Ashley is much faster and more exciting than Flatt, and since Ashley had a much harder triple-triple, and since Ashley also landed 7 triples. For Ashley to skate that well herself and even be doing a triple lutz-triple loop and lose the LP by several points to Flatt whose only asset was ever consistency (and decent jump content) because of one tiny mistake is a joke. Thankfully at Nationals this year the judges finally got their acts together and scored Flatt appopriately for the first time ever at Nationals probably.

Triple Butz
05-03-2012, 01:38 AM
Since Ashley's presentation is way better than Flatt, since Ashley is much faster and more exciting than Flatt, and since Ashley had a much harder triple-triple, and since Ashley also landed 7 triples. For Ashley to skate that well herself and even be doing a triple lutz-triple loop and lose the LP by several points to Flatt whose only asset was ever consistency (and decent jump content) because of one tiny mistake is a joke. Thankfully at Nationals this year the judges finally got their acts together and scored Flatt appopriately for the first time ever at Nationals probably.

You left out spins and spirals (which counted for more in those days). Ashley really should have won the LP that year and been no lower than 2nd overall.

Cheylana
05-03-2012, 03:32 AM
Be that as it may, 2008 Nationals did not set Ashley back for years.

AndyWarhol
05-03-2012, 03:35 AM
landing on one foot.

judgejudy27
05-03-2012, 03:36 AM
Who knows but her I suppose. It might have just reinforced in her mind she would always be below Zhang, Nagasu, Flatt, though. After all she pretty much skated out of her mind at those Nationals, apart from the improvement in her overall skating she still hasnt skated that much of a personal best to do this, apart from possibly 4 Continents this year. She just never seemed that confident to me again (despite some of her brash quotes) until this season.

fenway2
05-03-2012, 05:30 AM
I don't remember any cries of Wagner being robbed back in 08. I remember a few felt Flatt was robbed (stop laughing ;) ) and Nagasu was given too high a score in the SP. It seems some might be rethinking Wagner was robbed in hindsight because she had a good season this year? I thought Wagner's long program from 2008 from music to choreography to the jerky presentation to the dated and ugly costume/packaging was horrible. She's come a long way.

Jenna
05-03-2012, 05:32 AM
Certainly. Wagner was always very talented. Her lutz-loop combo was super impressive, but her packaging was not good. Her skating was clunky and unrefined in 2008 and her presentation was definitely not superior to Flatt's nor Nagasu's in any way that year. It is obvious why her program component scores were not as high as Flatt's nor Nagasu's. The 2008 Ladies FS at Nationals was a very good one overall and the numbers were very tight. It all comes down to that one double loop for Wagner.

Of course, things have changed over the course of four years. Wagner is now, by far, the most mature and refined ladies skater the US possesses, save for Czisny. She skates with decent power and her packaging last year was spot on...a whole world of difference.

Triple Butz
05-03-2012, 06:16 PM
I don't remember any cries of Wagner being robbed back in 08. I remember a few felt Flatt was robbed (stop laughing ;) ) and Nagasu was given too high a score in the SP. It seems some might be rethinking Wagner was robbed in hindsight because she had a good season this year? I thought Wagner's long program from 2008 from music to choreography to the jerky presentation to the dated and ugly costume/packaging was horrible. She's come a long way.

I remember lots of people thinking Ashley was robbed and a lot of people being thankful that Nagasu held onto first because Flatt was too rough around the edges to be champion. That's mostly based upon my circle of friends, though. The edge calls were a mess at that competition, though, so I found a lot of the results questionable. Nagasu, Flatt, and Wagner were all flutzing at that time and none of them were called on it.

ETA: The comments in this YT clip show that the opinion has been around for many years...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShGt3JB_uu0

RD
05-04-2012, 03:02 AM
How can anyone suggest that Wagner's 3rd place in 2008 stunted her career growth? She still got to go to Worlds that year. She didn't take advantage of the opportunity to establish herself, though, finishing 16th- and people seem to forget the near-spectacular SP meltdown she then had at 2009 Nationals that took her out of contention immediately.

Wagner's nemesis was ALWAYS the SP. In a weird way, it still IS now.