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View Full Version : David Wilson will be choreographing new programs for Gachinski and Tuktamysheva



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ProgramerUSFS
04-28-2012, 10:32 PM
I wonder why some of the Russian skaters are coming out and doing this. Why have they not done this before and they are now? Anyone have a theory?

os168
04-29-2012, 12:18 AM
I wonder why some of the Russian skaters are coming out and doing this. Why have they not done this before and they are now? Anyone have a theory?

Politics, conflict of interests, internal and international. It would be interesting to see how they will be received back home at Russia Nationals too.

jl22aries
04-29-2012, 12:55 AM
I wonder why some of the Russian skaters are coming out and doing this. Why have they not done this before and they are now? Anyone have a theory?

Gosh I'm sure people could base their entire thesis on exploring the recent history of Russian Skating and it's perceived "collapse". From the little I know, this is my take: I wonder if their system has just been slow to recover from the Soviet collapse. All the defecting that occurred in the 90s moved a significant chunk of their talent across the pond. I think that change made all the difference.

It was the newer generation of skaters who were growing up in Russia, who were born after the collapse, that were feeling the deficit during the mid '00s.

Now they are in a phase of rebirth, catching up with the rest of the world's well oiled skating federations. Made all the more difficult because the new judging system just so happened to be introduced just as they were in the process of rebirth so now they have that extra hill to battle; the new system is so counter intuitive to the legacy of Russian skating. You can still see that legacy in the types of programs being produced by skaters who are training within Russia; the programs are beautiful and really not to take away from their value, but they are very old fashioned (in concept, music, design, costuming, everything). I think this is one of the reasons that despite their being a few potential turning points over the last few years, any momentum immediately sputtered. The unbelievable talented skating stars have come through to provide those shining moments, but overall their federation was rooted still in a system that no longer cohered to the one that the rest of the world was playing in.

Now there's looming Sochi so the push to medal is smacking, but boy they are cutting it close just two, three seasons before the games, only just now luring coaches back to Russia and sending students abroad. Clearly now the federation sees what it needs to do to compete with the rest of them. What remains a little :confused: is why it took them so long. Pride? Were they, are they so strongly rooted in the traditions of Russian skating that they could not let go of a style, philosophy, and system that could no longer compete with the world? Lack of funding?

What are your thoughts?

aliceanne
04-29-2012, 01:52 AM
Gosh I'm sure people could base their entire thesis on exploring the recent history of Russian Skating and it's perceived "collapse". From the little I know, this is my take: I wonder if their system has just been slow to recover from the Soviet collapse. All the defecting that occurred in the 90s moved a significant chunk of their talent across the pond. I think that change made all the difference.

It was the newer generation of skaters who were growing up in Russia, who were born after the collapse, that were feeling the deficit during the mid '00s.

Now they are in a phase of rebirth, catching up with the rest of the world's well oiled skating federations. Made all the more difficult because the new judging system just so happened to be introduced just as they were in the process of rebirth so now they have that extra hill to battle; the new system is so counter intuitive to the legacy of Russian skating. You can still see that

legacy in the types of programs being produced by skaters who are training within Russia; the programs are beautiful and really not to take away from
their value, but they are very old fashioned (in concept, music, design, costuming, everything). I think this is one of the reasons that despite their being a few potential turning points over the last few years, any momentum immediately sputtered. The unbelievable talented skating stars have come
through to provide those shining moments, but overall their federation was rooted still in a system that no longer cohered to the one that the rest of the
world was playing in.
Now there's looming Sochi so the push to medal is smacking, but boy they are
cutting it close just two, three seasons before the games, only just now luring coaches back to Russia and sending students abroad. Clearly now the federation sees what it needs to do to compete with the rest of them. What
remains a little :confused: is why it took them so long. Pride? Were they, are they so strongly rooted in the traditions of Russian skating that they could not
let go of a style, philosophy, and system that could no longer compete with the world? Lack of funding?
What are your thoughts?

The impression I have gotten from Russians living in the U.S. Is that the economic situation in the former Soviet Union was pretty dire after the break- up. It has only been in the last couple of years that I have heard them speak of their homeland with optimism. Ice skating probably wasn't a priority.

caseyedwards
04-29-2012, 01:53 AM
The PCS is very low and not getting better and in the 2011-2012 season Mishin introduced backloading to Gachinski and also chose Tom Dickson to work with him or however that worked. In Sochi teams can't risk getting 5's in PCS like Plushenko did in Vancover. You can't have that happen. Classic "Russian" design of Ice Dance programs and Mens programs have to be thrown in the garbage and are being thrown in the garbage. Ladies is looking good because the technical elements are so strong for them- but getting PCS higher is important. Pairs has been good there throughout COP due to Moskvina and her just being always on top of any change that happens.

ETA- Pride was a factor and the past success.

ProgramerUSFS
04-29-2012, 01:21 PM
Gosh I'm sure people could base their entire thesis on exploring the recent history of Russian Skating and it's perceived "collapse". From the little I know, this is my take: I wonder if their system has just been slow to recover from the Soviet collapse. All the defecting that occurred in the 90s moved a significant chunk of their talent across the pond. I think that change made all the difference.

It was the newer generation of skaters who were growing up in Russia, who were born after the collapse, that were feeling the deficit during the mid '00s.

Now they are in a phase of rebirth, catching up with the rest of the world's well oiled skating federations. Made all the more difficult because the new judging system just so happened to be introduced just as they were in the process of rebirth so now they have that extra hill to battle; the new system is so counter intuitive to the legacy of Russian skating. You can still see that legacy in the types of programs being produced by skaters who are training within Russia; the programs are beautiful and really not to take away from their value, but they are very old fashioned (in concept, music, design, costuming, everything). I think this is one of the reasons that despite their being a few potential turning points over the last few years, any momentum immediately sputtered. The unbelievable talented skating stars have come through to provide those shining moments, but overall their federation was rooted still in a system that no longer cohered to the one that the rest of the world was playing in.

Now there's looming Sochi so the push to medal is smacking, but boy they are cutting it close just two, three seasons before the games, only just now luring coaches back to Russia and sending students abroad. Clearly now the federation sees what it needs to do to compete with the rest of them. What remains a little :confused: is why it took them so long. Pride? Were they, are they so strongly rooted in the traditions of Russian skating that they could not let go of a style, philosophy, and system that could no longer compete with the world? Lack of funding?

What are your thoughts?

I had kind of thought this, but wasn't sure. Some of their younger skaters such as Tuktamysheva did real good, I had thought. But she did seam to skate from jump to jump. Do you think that a choreographer can create the parts missing? Or is it really an everyday training mind set?

Ziggy
04-30-2012, 01:33 AM
I don't think that Wilson's, Gachinski's and Tuktamisheva's styles match at all.

Why not Tom Dickson or Pasquale Camerlengo?

Especially given Camerlengo was there anyway for Plushenko.

misskarne
04-30-2012, 02:29 AM
I don't think that Wilson's, Gachinski's and Tuktamisheva's styles match at all.

Why not Tom Dickson or Pasquale Camerlengo?

Especially given Camerlengo was there anyway for Plushenko.

I think the LAST thing Mishin would want to do is give Plushenko and Gachinski the same choreographers. They're doing their best to give Artur is own identity as a skater and his own on-ice personality. The LAST thing he needs is to have a program too similar to Plushy's in probably the most important season of his career.

So I totally agree with the idea that Artur and Plushy should have different choreographers.

I still like the Tom Dickson programs from the season just gone and was hoping for a repeat, but oh well. We'll have to see what Wilson comes up with. Hopefully Artur works with Tom Dickson again in the future.

Aussie Willy
04-30-2012, 03:48 AM
A little sad about this because I absolutely loved Artur's programs this season. The short was so much fun, I think it really helped him develop an on-ice personality, and it fit the music so well! And I think the long has so much potential for further development. I was really hoping for him to keep these two and carry on with them into this season.

From all the programs I watched from Worlds, Gachinski probably had the worst choregraphed freeskate out of the men. Just made me cringe watching them. Choregraphy did not match the music or it was just a lot of phaff with no purpose.

os168
04-30-2012, 04:49 AM
From all the programs I watched from Worlds, Gachinski probably had the worst choregraphed freeskate out of the men. Just made me cringe watching them. Choregraphy did not match the music or it was just a lot of phaff with no purpose.

Ditto x 10!!!

I totally agree with you.. I have been complaining about that program since the beginning of the season while he kept getting over marked coming off the bronze last year. Urghhh... glad I am right :cool:

I think Wilson and Liza could be very interesting. I find her innately musical and have a good sense of rhythm that dancers have. She should be capable of better expressions with better age appropriate program (and costumes) that she can connect with. Artur... I wish he does something else beyond the 'blue steel' look. I am not that positive on his prospects, he rarely ever listens to the music let alone express anything emotionally different through out his entire program.

Marco
04-30-2012, 06:48 AM
From all the programs I watched from Worlds, Gachinski probably had the worst choregraphed freeskate out of the men. Just made me cringe watching them. Choregraphy did not match the music or it was just a lot of phaff with no purpose.

Those Hercules arms :scream:

The only reason he didn't do them at Worlds was because well, he didn't land his jumps.


I don't think that Wilson's, Gachinski's and Tuktamisheva's styles match at all.

Why not Tom Dickson or Pasquale Camerlengo?

Especially given Camerlengo was there anyway for Plushenko.

I don't think it matters who originates the choreography. In this case the most important person is who controls how much choreography gets executed.

Aussie Willy
04-30-2012, 12:06 PM
I don't think it matters who originates the choreography. In this case the most important person is who controls how much choreography gets executed.
You can give a skater all the choreography in the world, but unless they know how to use it, then it is not going to work.

Ziggy
04-30-2012, 12:17 PM
I think the LAST thing Mishin would want to do is give Plushenko and Gachinski the same choreographers. They're doing their best to give Artur is own identity as a skater and his own on-ice personality. The LAST thing he needs is to have a program too similar to Plushy's in probably the most important season of his career.

So I totally agree with the idea that Artur and Plushy should have different choreographers.

Did Pechalat/Bourzat's and Weaver/Poje's programs look similar?

misskarne
04-30-2012, 02:51 PM
Did Pechalat/Bourzat's and Weaver/Poje's programs look similar?

I don't know. Did they?

In this case it is not neccessarily about them actually looking the same. It is the perception. Artur already gets enough irrational hate and bashing for being a "mini-Plushenko". If he was with the same choreographer, similarities would be inevitable, and people would actively go looking for them instead of looking at Artur. So, a different choreographer is the better solution there.

Ziggy
04-30-2012, 03:36 PM
I don't know. Did they?

Well watch and judge for yourself then.


In this case it is not neccessarily about them actually looking the same. It is the perception. Artur already gets enough irrational hate and bashing for being a "mini-Plushenko". If he was with the same choreographer, similarities would be inevitable, and people would actively go looking for them instead of looking at Artur. So, a different choreographer is the better solution there.

It would be hard to do that if they were given two very different programs.

Camerlengo's style fits Gachinski much better than Wilson's style does.