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Sylvia
04-28-2012, 04:07 PM
Thanks for saving/posting that Peoria Journal Star article, shine! I remember Kirk Wessler's excellent articles on Savoie during the 2005-06 Olympic season. (That was the earliest I recall seeing Kathy Johnson's name in a skating article.)

shine
04-28-2012, 05:02 PM
A 5.1/5.1 from judge #2 and being ranked as low as 4th from another judge is just beyond absurd.
The outrage in the constant underscoring of Matt Savoie is really beyond words. It's unimaginable that this brilliant FS from 2002 Worlds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY was placed as low as 11th (!!!!!!). I don't think there is ANYWAY that it could have been placed that low if it was performed under today's scoring system.
The list goes on and on and it's probably better for me if I don't discuss them :lol:
I have so much respect for a skater like him who still kept their motivation to go on after being trivialized year after year the way he has been.

Plusdinfo
04-28-2012, 06:00 PM
I wasn't in the States to enjoy his skating from 2004-2006, and I don't remember much coverage of him before, so my enjoyment of his skating is almost all after his career. I agree with all who think he was underscored, but that's skating: a judged sport! Instead of focusing on that, I'm grateful to be able to see his great programs again and again.

Matt is certainly appreciated.

aftershocks
04-28-2012, 06:59 PM
The outrage in the constant underscoring of a Matt Savoie is really beyond words. It's unimaginable that this brilliant FS from 2002 Worlds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY was placed as low as 11th (!!!!!!). I don't think there is ANYWAY that it could have been placed that low if it was performed under today's scoring system.
The list goes on and on and it's probably better for me if I don't discuss them :lol:
I have so much respect for a skater like him who still kept their motivation to go on after being trivilized year after year the way he has been.

OH MY GOD!!! I can't believe Matt's placement for that beautiful performance filled with difficult elements -- Gosh, a 3-axel out of a spread eagle! :swoon: Who, I ask can do that move? No one else I can think of in today's field, except maybe Jeremy Abbott, and Johnny Weir (if he really tried b/c he has a great 3-axel), also perhaps Dai and Kozuka, especially Dai b/c he always challenges himself; and Sasha Abt in his glory days; also perhaps Ross Miner, b/c he also has a great 3-axel as well as very good spread eagles.

I don't think I saw Worlds in 2002, or else I just didn't see Matt's fp performance. Whenever I heard that Matt came in 11th at Worlds that year, I always thought that he had faltered somehow!!! Did he have a poor sp? What terrible judging! :mad: I can only guess that part of the scoring for Matt was based on the fact that he came in as the #3 U.S. guy... Ah yes, I checked and I see that Tim quad king Goebel came in second with a silver medal at 2002 Worlds and Michael Weiss was 6th. So, that's the answer: Matt was the odd man out b/c Tim and Michael were the more popular, favored U.S. guys -- so the U.S. Fed had no desire I suppose to politik on behalf of Matt for a better, more deserved placement. I like Tim and Michael and they are both wonderful skaters who contributed a great deal to U.S. skating, and they both continue to contribute to the sport and to skaters. However, once again what a shame. I think Matt's skating will be longer remembered and revered. Matt got caught betwixt and between the dawning of a new era in the scoring, the crowded U.S. men's field, and the damnable quad craze.

skatesindreams
04-28-2012, 07:09 PM
I don't think I saw Worlds in 2002, or else I just didn't see Matt's fp performance. Whenever I heard that Matt came in 11th at Worlds that year, I always thought that he had faltered somehow!!! Did he have a poor sp? What terrible judging! I can only guess that part of the scoring for Matt was based on the fact that he came in as the #3 U.S. guy... Ah yes, I checked and I see that Tim quad king Goebel came in second with a silver medal at 2002 Worlds and Michael Weiss was 6th. So, that's the answer: Matt was the odd man out b/c Tim and Michael were the more popular, favored U.S. guys -- so the U.S. Fed had no desire I suppose to politik on behalf of Matt for a better, more deserved placement.

I believe you "hit the nail on the head".
USFS - indeed, few federations - will rarely "promote" their #3 entrant with TPTB.
That may be why he was never able to advance beyond the top of the "second rank", despite the quality of his performances.

Vagabond
04-28-2012, 10:37 PM
A 5.1/5.1 from judge #2 and being ranked as low as 4th from another judge is just beyond absurd.J

Judge #2 was Joyce Burden.

Her rankings for the second mark were:

1st: Johnny Weir, 6.0
2nd: Timothy Goebel, 5.9
3rd: Evan Lysacek, 5.8
4th: Michael Weiss, 5.5
5th: Matthew Savoie, Derrick Delmore, Scott Smith, 5.1

Judge #8 was Doug Williams.

His rankings for the second mark were:

1st: Johnny Weir, 5.9
2nd: Evan Lysacek, 5.8
3rd: Timothy Goebel, 5.7
4th: Michael Weiss, 5.6
5th: Braden Overett, Derrick Delmore, 5.5
7th: Matthew Savoie, 5.4

http://www.usfsa.org/event_related_details.asp?ri=content/events/200405/uschamps/seniormen-free.htm

:rolleyes: :scream:

I'd love to hear their explanation of how they arrived at those rankings and their general theory of how the 6.0 system was to be applied.

aftershocks
04-29-2012, 05:17 AM
Wow, Vagabond :eek:

Just looking at that scoring rundown from U.S. Nationals gives me heartburn! And actually, as I think about it, the relative craziness of those marks does make me realize more fully that the old 6.0 scoring, as constituted, was arcane and ridiculous. I still think the ISU should have focused sooner on reworking the judging system prior to the 2002 Olympic scandal. But once the scandal broke and they were “forced” to make changes, they should have been more judicious (:lol: fat chance). They could have tried to meld 6.0 numbering with a new approach to judging criteria, or at the least not cloaked the judges’ scoring identities in anonymity.

In any case, although the current IJS provides us with explanations and opportunities for the skaters to be scored more visibly on their elements, the way GOE and PCS, and indeed most of the categories (IN, TR, CH, PE) are applied from skater to skater and from event to event, is still haphazard, politics-based, and often just as ridiculous as the way some judges applied 6.0 scoring. Now, tho’ I especially abhor the sky-is-the-limit point totals, and the mostly boring, double-take kiss ’n cry reactions.

How can these 6.0 kiss ’n cry reactions be topped:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lH9mg_ZneA&feature=related Rudy G 1996 Nats

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s MK 1996 Worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQSoIEAxns MK 2004 Nats

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIkfE30GPWU&feature=related JW 2004 Nats

Yep, below is one of the rarer great kiss 'n cry reactions under IJS (mainly b/c T/T were not expected to medal). Also, we hear the commentators running down the judges’ scoring, so online viewers are made aware before the skaters realize, which IMO can’t compete with seeing a row of marks from the individual judges flash on the screen in real time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61OOffoS0ZY Tran/ Takahashi 2012 Worlds fp

IJS does allow more skaters to still have a chance for the podium after the sp. However, there are so many problems to be worked out under IJS, not the least being the way point-gathering strategies tend to be a detriment to artistic freedom in the fp. Also, the ugliness and overabundance of spins and slow as molasses revolutions being cranked out, plus the boring sameness of many skaters’ moves in programs.

Sorry for the OT rant – I will get back to Matt!

Cheylana
04-29-2012, 05:19 AM
I remember attending an old cheesefest -- 2002 Crest Whitestrips in Auburn Hills, MI (http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/results/2002crest.htm) -- and Matt, despite a delightful program with seven triples -- came in dead last, behind very sloppy efforts from Takeshi Honda and Alexei Yagudin. At the time I figured I was an ignorant fan who couldn't see his faults, but in retrospect I think he was just grossly and perpetually undermarked.

aftershocks
04-29-2012, 06:45 AM
Jeez, those results for Matt at that 2002 cheesefest certainly look as if they were predetermined. :rolleyes:

Many feel that Matt would have been scored more fairly under IJS -- I suppose ideally and in terms of point values, he should probably have been. He did compete a couple of years under IJS anyway, didn't he? In any case, IJS in the long run may not have helped Matt either b/c of the dastardly politics, and the danged quad.


I believe you "hit the nail on the head".
USFS - indeed, few federations - will rarely "promote" their #3 entrant with TPTB.
That may be why he was never able to advance beyond the top of the "second rank", despite the quality of his performances.

ITA -- a very sad state of affairs. It is interesting, yet painful to look back at how and try to figure out why the beauty of Matt's skating was consistently under-rewarded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_Figure_Skating_Championships
I double-checked the results at 2002 Nationals and 2002 Worlds. Actually, Matt took 4th place :mad: at Nats in 2002. Todd Eldredge was first that year (Goebel 2nd, and Weiss 3rd), but I guess Todd was injured b/c he did not attend Worlds, which gave Matt his first chance to compete at Worlds. So Matt not only had the disadvantage of competing at Worlds as the 3rd* U.S. guy (w/ no Fed support), he was also probably viewed as a relative unknown by international judges, which means being totally dumped on in the scoring, especially under 6.0. Again, what a shame!

*(Ironically, as we all remember, Evan went to 2005 Worlds as the 3rd place U.S. guy and came out with a bronze medal, because he had a great deal of Fed support -- that's why he was at Worlds anyway, instead of Matt.)

Looking at the 2002 Worlds performances from the U.S. guys, Matt clearly deserved a higher placement -- at least a bronze medal. IMO stylistically/ artistically Matt was even better than Yagudin and Goebel (except Matt didn't have the danged quad!) There was no way that Yagudin and Goebel were not going to go 1, 2 at Worlds that year, especially after their showing at the Olympics a month earlier. Plush was second at the Olympics, but did not attend Worlds. Another great under-rated skater at that Worlds was Sasha Abt (who I feel was in many ways a better skater than Yagudin and Plush -- but Abt didn't have the political support and he also was unlucky with injuries). If Plush had attended, Goebel would likely have been dropped to third. With Plush not there, Abt, despite skating very well (especially in the sp), was not the politically popular Russian that Plush and Yagudin were. As a result, the ISU seems to have felt they had to give a top guy from another country the opportunity -- so Takeshi Honda got the bronze over Abt. ETA: Actually, Honda was the top guy from the home country, since Worlds took place in Japan that year -- another reason why politics didn't work in Abt's favor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7iRsCpvNuk M. Weiss 2002 Worlds fs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=2CTERlh1d10 Goebel 2002 Worlds fs & fluff feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfRJm3kIkPU&feature=endscreen Abt 2002 Worlds sp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K2k4fQUIw4 Abt 2002 Worlds fp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uutt5Hszqhc&feature=relmfu Yagudin 2002 Worlds fp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY Matt 2002 Worlds fp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9SxUPJdVGc Honda 2002 Worlds fp

The clips are also interesting in that Goebel performs a 3-axel out of a spread eagle (likely inspired by Matt), altho' Goebel doesn't do it quite as well, even despite the fact his blade got caught and he wobbled slightly before going into the 3-axel. I notice too that Weiss around this time had changed his style of skating, very likely once again due to the impact and influence of Matt's skating. I have to say that Matt truly deserved to be at least placed above Weiss at Nationals and Worlds (especially b/c Weiss altho' he often attempted a quad, never cleanly landed one). The quad is a huge factor during that period, unfortunately. Goebel's lightning quick ability to turn revolutions and land multiple quads is the main reason why he was able to move up so quickly in the U.S. senior rankings. To his credit, Goebel was a fighter -- and strangely after he lost his ability to consistently land quads, Goebel made strides in developing other aspects of his skating.

For Matt, as someone indicated earlier, I suppose the fact that he stayed loyal to his first coach and did not take the advice to move away from home and train with a "top" coach, meant that TPTB dropped him off their politically relevant radar.

BTW, is Matt's last name pronounced "Sa-vwah" or "Sa-voy"?

Vagabond
04-29-2012, 06:59 AM
Should be "Sa-vwah." :swoon:
Is "Sa-voy." :fragile:

aftershocks
04-29-2012, 07:03 AM
Oy-vey (the pain!) :wuzrobbed

Thanks Vagabond re the correct pronunciation. One of the Eurosport guys naturally voiced it the French way. I believe they too love Matt's skating.

skateboy
04-29-2012, 07:05 AM
A perfect example of how Matt got screwed, albeit a cheesefest (watch to the end):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZfGRMJJIXE

aftershocks
04-29-2012, 07:33 AM
OMG, I vaguely remember seeing this Marshalls Idol-style cheesefest, and being pissed at the clueless audience voting. I felt Matt and Johnny should have moved to the final round.

But how great is it that Tim and Johnny clapped when Matt kept receiving the compliments and unanimous votes from the panel. :respec: Even Peter Carruthers had the sense to vote for Matt rather than who I thought he would go for: Weiss. Alas, the audience apparently loved Weiss' backflips and macho 'tude. I believe Johnny won overall in the end, but Matt would have deserved too I'm certain, if he'd had the chance to compete in the final round, like the panel voted. Not sure I understand why the audience's votes mattered more.

Well, like Dick said, it was just for fun. But sadly, :( even for fun, Matt couldn't catch a break. Thanks for posting this trip down memory lane. At least Matt publicly received the praise he so deserved. I love the way Matt smiled at the compliments.

Very noticeable too that Weiss did not clap along with Johnny and Tim in tribute to Matt's skating.

shine
04-29-2012, 07:52 AM
Well, like Dick said, it was just for fun. But sadly, :( even for fun, Matt couldn't catch a break. Thanks for posting this trip down memory lane. At least Matt publicly received the praise he so deserved. I love the way Matt smiled at the compliments.

This is the same show at which Matt skated the number Solo Amore that I posted earlier. It was really a stunning performance. And yes! His smile :swoon: :swoon: It's like he doesn't believe he's that good and they are all showering him with unabashed praises. So nice to see his talent being recognized and praised like that. I loved Dick's comments and how much he adored Matt's skating. Matt truly was a skater with music in every inch of his bones.

aftershocks
04-29-2012, 07:32 PM
This is the same show at which Matt skated the number Solo Amore that I posted earlier. It was really a stunning performance. And yes! His smile :swoon: :swoon: It's like he doesn't believe he's that good and they are all showering him with unabashed praises. So nice to see his talent being recognized and praised like that. I loved Dick's comments and how much he adored Matt's skating. Matt truly was a skater with music in every inch of his bones.

^^ :respec:

Thanks, shine. And thanks too for posting earlier the Solo Amore program that Matt skated at that Marshalls cheesefest, which mesmerized Dick, Peggy, and Peter! What fond memories of Matt ... :swoon: