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l'etoile
05-19-2012, 07:00 PM
If "more often than not" part in aliceane's statement is altered with a phrase like "some times" or "there are some cases," I think it is a legitimate argument which I can totally agree with.

Thanks for the great posts kwanfan1818 and aliceane.

aliceanne
05-20-2012, 08:07 PM
If "more often than not" part in aliceane's statement is altered with a phrase like "some times" or "there are some cases," I think it is a legitimate argument which I can totally agree with.

Thanks for the great posts kwanfan1818 and aliceane.

You are correct, I should have qualified it differently. I also regretted posting it afterwards as I didn't want to draw the thread away from Hanyu. Plus many of the splits have been analyzed to death and no one but those directly involved will ever know for sure. While I don't believe in conspiracy theories as deeply as OS168, I do agree that elite skating is a business.

os168
05-20-2012, 08:55 PM
You are correct, I should have qualified it differently. I also regretted posting it afterwards as I didn't want to draw the thread away from Hanyu. Plus many of the splits have been analyzed to death and no one but those directly involved will ever know for sure. While I don't believe in conspiracy theories as deeply as OS168, I do agree that elite skating is a business.

Sorry, but how can one believe it is a business yet chose not to believe in common tactics frequently used in businesses? What is the difference between smart subversive tactics vs conspiracy?

People have been trying to undermine my analysis of a business matter and made into a 'conspiracy'. When the arrangements and reasons are more simple, and the word conspiracy/strategy/collaboration are hardly different. I personally think what happened has less to do than to do with personal feelings and egos between coach and student but more about rivaled nations interests mixed with business opportunities driven by profit.

What I have seen is Yuna has been trying to set up a stable for Korean skaters for the future of Korean skating by keep shipping Korean skaters to the cricket club likely at her own considerable expense, but a practical minded coach must have realised the amount of work and effort and importantly the 'unlikely hood' he will able to get a second gold following that approach so he have kept some back doors open and when there are easier way get what he want offered via a persuasive agency that makes more sense, he took it by renewed his contract. It is just a practical business matter from all parties, particularly JSF who pretty much finished rival nation's interest in one shot. All these talk about personal feelings and egos are really by product of these conflicting business interests, easily manipulated by media savvy organisation who are very good at manipulating results and public awareness to a favorable outcome.

On some level, we would all like to think the best of people, but in the real world, rivalry is real in sport and in businesses. Profit are gained by the ones who can make it happen. The smart and the ruthless are the ones who survives and wins.

AJ Skatefan
05-20-2012, 10:12 PM
People have been trying to undermine my analysis of a business matter and made into a 'conspiracy'.

That's because your "analysis" has more holes in it than a slice of swiss cheese.

os168
05-20-2012, 10:55 PM
That's because your "analysis" has more holes in it than a slice of swiss cheese.

:lol:

Well average slice of Swiss cheese in Marks and Spensors you get maximum 2 or 3 holes. I am not sure about in the States... but 2 or 3 holes? yup i can live with that. :P

http://organizeyourstuffnow.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Recipes-2011-059.jpg

ponta1
05-21-2012, 07:49 PM
Sorry, but how can one believe it is a business yet chose not to believe in common tactics frequently used in businesses? What is the difference between smart subversive tactics vs conspiracy?

People have been trying to undermine my analysis of a business matter and made into a 'conspiracy'. When the arrangements and reasons are more simple, and the word conspiracy/strategy/collaboration are hardly different. I personally think what happened has less to do than to do with personal feelings and egos between coach and student but more about rivaled nations interests mixed with business opportunities driven by profit.

What I have seen is Yuna has been trying to set up a stable for Korean skaters for the future of Korean skating by keep shipping Korean skaters to the cricket club likely at her own considerable expense, but a practical minded coach must have realised the amount of work and effort and importantly the 'unlikely hood' he will able to get a second gold following that approach so he have kept some back doors open and when there are easier way get what he want offered via a persuasive agency that makes more sense, he took it by renewed his contract. It is just a practical business matter from all parties, particularly JSF who pretty much finished rival nation's interest in one shot. All these talk about personal feelings and egos are really by product of these conflicting business interests, easily manipulated by media savvy organisation who are very good at manipulating results and public awareness to a favorable outcome.

On some level, we would all like to think the best of people, but in the real world, rivalry is real in sport and in businesses. Profit are gained by the ones who can make it happen. The smart and the ruthless are the ones who survives and wins.

:rolleyes: Really, now?

AJ Skatefan
05-21-2012, 08:06 PM
:lol:

Well average slice of Swiss cheese in Marks and Spensors you get maximum 2 or 3 holes. I am not sure about in the States... but 2 or 3 holes? yup i can live with that. :P

Maybe, but the holes are pretty big.

overedge
05-21-2012, 08:37 PM
when there are easier way get what he want offered via a persuasive agency that makes more sense, he took it by renewed his contract

:rolleyes: Please go and take a look at IMG's website, which you obviously haven't done because it would blow even bigger holes in your ridiculous conspiracy theory. Orser's contract with them is as a speaker . Unless his speeches include secret subliminal messages to Japanese skaters to come to his rink, and/or secret subliminal messages to Korean skaters to fall down a lot, that hardly supports anything you are saying about this "persuasive agency".

os168
05-21-2012, 11:47 PM
:rolleyes: Please go and take a look at IMG's website, which you obviously haven't done because it would blow even bigger holes in your ridiculous conspiracy theory. Orser's contract with them is as a speaker . Unless his speeches include secret subliminal messages to Japanese skaters to come to his rink, and/or secret subliminal messages to Korean skaters to fall down a lot, that hardly supports anything you are saying about this "persuasive agency".

LOL... yeah right, because that is what Orser excel at... as a speaker. And how much is 10% of his speaker fee a year justify signing him? They'd lucky to get $1000-$3000 a year based on 'speaking roles' according to your theory. How much does create a contract cost for lawyer's fee again?

Clearly you have no idea how business works, or why they kept sending him exclusively IMG client students.

os168
05-21-2012, 11:48 PM
.

professordeb
05-22-2012, 12:47 AM
Any chance this topic can head back to it's original set of posts before it was hijacked by a certain poster? Each time I come in here it is with the hope that somehow this topic has veered back to Orser and Hanyu. Alas, it's just more conspiracy ... le sigh ... one can always hope, I guess.

overedge
05-22-2012, 12:51 AM
LOL... yeah right, because that is what Orser excel at... as a speaker. And how much is 10% of his speaker fee a year justify signing him? They'd lucky to get $1000-$3000 a year based on 'speaking roles' according to your theory.

You obviously keep missing the part about how agencies like IMG have hundreds, if not thousands, of clients, and that is how they make profits, based on 10% commission for each one. And speakers that are popular at corporate events can make a LOT of money - a lot more than you seem to think.


Clearly you have no idea how business works, or why they kept sending him exclusively IMG client students.

I guess my tinfoil hat is not as tight as yours :rolleyes:

lowtherlore
05-22-2012, 11:30 AM
...
The only reason the Orser/Kim split got so much publicity is because they made their relationship very public in the first place.

Every elite-level coach-skater relationship is public in some degree and each split, amicable or not, will draw its share of publicity and speculation. True, Orser-Kim drew a lot of public attention and media coverage leading up to the Olympics, but the biggest reason the split got so much publicity was in the extraordinary manner with which Orser handled it. He had come back to media spotlight in more than a decade and this time with good publicity with him making a golden journey with Kim, then ended the relationship for good with emotional mayhem. What a shame.

lowtherlore
05-22-2012, 11:40 AM
I'm going to ignore most of your tinfoil hat :puppet: konspiracy theory silliness, but you are really stretching the truth by quoting Rippon's mention of "the situation" like he is supporting the outlandish scenario you are proposing. The "situation" that Rippon was describing involved the tension between Orser, Yu-Na, and Yu-na's mother - who, despite being her daughter's manager, business agent, chaperone, etc., is mysteriously absent from your reasoning for all of this :puppet: action.

And if you think that who makes someone's costumes is indicative of some :sekret: :puppet: konspiracy, then you are really desperate.

I wanted to gain some perspective on what had transpired between them, by collecting what had been said and done by the related parties before/during/after the event. 90% of what I wrote in my previous post was on the facts. You label it as a konspiracy theory, I call it seeing the events in perspective. Like I said before at the time of the split, I have no problem with anybody making a business decision to suit his needs and I feel no need to blame anybody for doing that, but I may still have some strong opinion about how and in what manner the related parties had been treated or affected in the process.

Speaking of Ripponís awareness of ďthe situationĒ at the time of his comment, who the big client of the club was, or would be, was a matter of no small significance to Rippon as to its implication on his own training and show skating opportunities. Kim had a big presence in the club and given the history of conflicts between her and the Japanese skaters/federation, itís not a stretch to assume he had a good idea re what was straining the relationship as well. Not just Rippon, itís likely the rest of the regulars of the club had been aware of the situation too. Thatís why I thought Orserís words were total baloney when he said he was fired out of the blue without given proper reasons. Or, if he had truly meant what he said, I would call his emotional maturity into question.

About her mum, what's the point treating her as a separate party from Kim as far as Kimís decision was concerned, when it would be safe to assume the interest/position of the mum as the manager and agent was basically consistent with Kim's? Are you suggesting the outcome would have been different had it not been for the mum? It's not like the mum arrived new at the club and changed the scene all of a sudden. I didnít buy it when Orser was painting Kim as a puppet of an intrusive skating mum while putting the blame on her. First, his bashing the mum was not really relevant as to the reason that led to Kimís decision to split with him. Second, to me Kim seems to be the kind of person who is keen on being in control of the given situation, in practice, in competition or in her off-the-ice activities. When Kim cried out ďI know whatís going on!Ē in her short-lived twitter message, it was clear to me she had a firm grasp of the situation she was under in making her decision.

No matter what their differences were, Kim followed the guidelines on making a coaching change, as one columnist wrote -- she did not begin lessons with, or a search for, someone else before notifying her coach. It still would have made a big news and invited a lot of speculation had the split been done quietly, but the way Orser ended it with the series of attack on Kim and the mum made it bigger and noisier than what it would have been. Not only he attacked Kim, he went as far as to touch upon two of the sensitive parts in any competitive skater's trades -- program music and the costume designer. I donít think it was mere slips of the tongue but meant to be threats and it made Kim issue an immediate warning, which made Orser stop talking and divert contacts to his attorney.

The whole incident must have been an alerting experience for Kim. After she moved to LA, when the Nippon TV crew was caught sneaking into Kwanís rink to tape Kim preparing for 2011 Worlds and then went on to air the video clip with Minoru Sano commentating on the grainy footage ďLooks like sheís practicing a new choreographic routine,Ē with a serious face lol, Kimís agent ATS sent a strong protest, demanding an on-air apology and threatened to block the TV companyís future access to Kimís interviews and press conferences, and also said it would submit a request to the JSF and ISU for a sanction on the TV company.

AFAIK Orser didnít have a contract with Kim, and charged her by hour. With Hanyu I guess his agent would have an income sharing scheme negotiated into a contract, considering the comments he made during the split with Kim. In an interview with Hersh, Orser said ďFinancial issues had nothing to do with the split,Ē but later added ďIím the lowest paid coach at this level in the history of figure skating. I get $110 an hour, and that is what I charged her. I did make something from Korean commercials, but there was no deal between us for that.Ē In other interview he said a coach in his level earns 30% of skaterís income. I think itís also possible to see him listed as a director in some shows (eg SOI Japan) in the future, as he had been in a couple of Kimís pre-ATS shows.

To have an idea what the training environment is like at the Cricket Club, there was an interview article with Japan Times Orser provides insight into making of a champion (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/sp20091118it.html) released two months prior to the Olympics, Orser talked about Kim's training and the key persons in the team, including some comments on Kimís mum (funny how it sounds at places like a marketing talk lol). From the interview it sounds like he was more like a team manager than a coach rigorously involved in the development of a skater, which could be actually good for Hanyu. It worked fine with Kim (she said she preferred a coach whoís not rigid in forcing his own way on a skater), and from Hanyuís interview it seems he and JSF share similar expectation.

Marco
05-22-2012, 12:11 PM
Did Hanyu explain how the commute would work? Coz I seem to remember reports that he would stay for school in Japan.