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sus2850
05-15-2012, 07:24 PM
Is it not the job of agencies to work with sponsors? Getting them to invest in skaters and skating events? So for example the IMG seats at euros this year were given out partly to people connected to the Russian vodka company co-funding the event (at least that is what I thought I witnessed). I do not see any conspiracy there.

lowtherlore
05-16-2012, 05:45 AM
It’s great for Orser to have Hanyu. He’s finally got a big talent from the big market and the deep pocket. My guess is, this time around Orser’s agent would have worked out a contract with, in addition to a base fee for coaching work, some profit sharing clause wrt the future income streams from some, if not all, categorized activities/projects where Hanyu would be a paid party. If he has success with Hanyu, Orser himself could get commercial opportunities too, like, he might be getting some endorsement offers or be directing SOIs in Japan. Hanyu is obviously a huge talent and he has the potential to challenge Chan at Sochi. Technically he’s already accomplished, the odds for success are great, and he’s likely to become a star in Japan where a teen prodigy is particularly valued and he’ll be still a teen at Sochi. For Orser it’s like he went long on a futures contract in a big uptrend. Good for him.

Hanyu’s interview didn’t say much about the change, and what he said was predictable. This coaching change is likely a product of talent marketing, but I think it was the Japanese federation that had made the definitive call, possibly long before they went public with it. I can’t imagine Hanyu having initiated it by asking JSF “I want to try out this Orser and the Toronto club so please arrange for this change and PR announcement,” when just weeks ago he was saying he would stay with coach Abe’s team.

It’s likely JSF and IMG had it in the making for some time since Mao’s agent (also IMG) approached Orser in early 2010 with an interest in him and the whole team of professionals associated with the club which would include the costume designer who later would be making dresses for Mao, as hinted by the comments made by Orser at the time of the split with Kim. That was followed by, in the summer of 2010 and weeks before the Orser-Kim split, JSF sending a group of Japanese junior skaters accompanied by the federation officials to the Cricket Club. That, together with Orser’s disclosure to Kim of the offer from Mao’s agent, caused tension between Orser and Kim that all the regulars of the club must have felt, as indicated by Rippon when he said, “We've known about the situation longer than the general public." Then came the Orser-IMG’s media blitz against Kim, on the eve of ticket sales launch for Kim’s ATS Los Angeles shows. With that I felt Orser made it clear then and there his interests and future plans were in line with those of JSF and IMG. So this coaching change wasn’t a surprise. It also could’ve been meant in part as a reciprocal treatment on JSF’s part.

In the interview Hanyu said the club’s collective coaching environment was the reason he decided to switch to Orser. By that I feel Orser is given some breathing room as he would not be singled out as being solely responsible for Hanyu’s success. It would be interesting though how Orser would manage achieving positive synergy among the club’s top skaters, especially when he has another legitimate contender in Fernandez who’ll be in peaking age at Sochi. But after all it’s Hanyu who represents bigger market, stronger federation and promising pipeline of skating talents. I think Hanyu would be doing fine. He’s already technically proficient, and the club has good facilities and resources in a private setting, which I guess would be better than his training base in Tohoku. He would have little problem with food, as getting Japanese and other oriental groceries won’t be a problem in Toronto. And, though I don’t consider his a serious case, I’ve seen some cases of people finding it easier to contain asthma symptoms when they moved from Asia to NA.

Japanfan
05-16-2012, 08:53 AM
No one could answer that.

Are you ALWAYS happy with your life? or Figure skating?
Never! ;)



Of course not. But if my enjoyment in something has been ruined
I'd cease my involvement in in, given the choice, and seek other pleasurable pursuits.

overedge
05-16-2012, 03:27 PM
.

It’s likely JSF and IMG had it in the making for some time since Mao’s agent (also IMG) approached Orser in early 2010 with an interest in him and the whole team of professionals associated with the club which would include the costume designer who later would be making dresses for Mao, as hinted by the comments made by Orser at the time of the split with Kim. That was followed by, in the summer of 2010 and weeks before the Orser-Kim split, JSF sending a group of Japanese junior skaters accompanied by the federation officials to the Cricket Club. That, together with Orser’s disclosure to Kim of the offer from Mao’s agent, caused tension between Orser and Kim that all the regulars of the club must have felt, as indicated by Rippon when he said, “We've known about the situation longer than the general public." Then came the Orser-IMG’s media blitz against Kim, on the eve of ticket sales launch for Kim’s ATS Los Angeles shows. With that I felt Orser made it clear then and there his interests and future plans were in line with those of JSF and IMG. So this coaching change wasn’t a surprise. It also could’ve been meant in part as a reciprocal treatment on JSF’s part.


I'm going to ignore most of your tinfoil hat :puppet: konspiracy theory silliness, but you are really stretching the truth by quoting Rippon's mention of "the situation" like he is supporting the outlandish scenario you are proposing. The "situation" that Rippon was describing involved the tension between Orser, Yu-Na, and Yu-na's mother - who, despite being her daughter's manager, business agent, chaperone, etc., is mysteriously absent from your reasoning for all of this :puppet: action.

And if you think that who makes someone's costumes is indicative of some :sekret: :puppet: konspiracy, then you are really desperate.

aliceanne
05-16-2012, 07:08 PM
Olympic gold medalists more often than not split from their coaches after they win. There are often hard feelings because the coaches feel they deserve a share of the skater's future earnings and the skaters don't. When they are working toward a common goal all is lovey-dovey. Once they reach the goal they disagree over who did the work and who deserves the reward.

The only reason the Orser/Kim split got so much publicity is because they made their relationship very public in the first place.

os168
05-16-2012, 09:46 PM
Of course not. But if my enjoyment in something has been ruined
I'd cease my involvement in in, given the choice, and seek other pleasurable pursuits.

LOL.... Oh really?!! I bet you'd like that.

Like no one has ever complained about ANYTHING before on FSU before, let alone the skaters themselves. Like there's nothing EVER wrong with this sport, and they should all leave if they felt passionate enough to complain, then this forum would have nobody left, except maybe you?

You must be taking some magic Japanfan 100% happiness pills!! I'd ask some, except I am worried about the side effects of ever only able to see the world in black and white when it is clearly full of beautiful colours and shades readily to be appreciate by anyone with an eye for it, in both the beauty and the ugly.

kwanfan1818
05-16-2012, 11:50 PM
Olympic gold medalists more often than not split from their coaches after they win. There are often hard feelings because the coaches feel they deserve a share of the skater's future earnings and the skaters don't. When they are working toward a common goal all is lovey-dovey. Once they reach the goal they disagree over who did the work and who deserves the reward.

The only reason the Orser/Kim split got so much publicity is because they made their relationship very public in the first place.

Can you give examples?

I'm not seeing a pattern here: most of the post-war singles went pro and toured immediately after winning the OGM, and when they returned, they returned to their coaches -- Petrenko, Boitano -- and the ones that stayed in -- Yagudin, Plushenko, Lysacek, Urmanov, Witt, Hughes remain(ed) with their coaches. Touring pros don't train full time in one place, and most coaches focus on their competitive skaters.

For pairs and dance, it's a bit different, because until the early '90's, the Soviet Pairs and Dance teams were dominant, and the option of switching coaches and who paid what to whom was dictated by government agencies and policies.

Moskvina had a deal with Berezhnaia and Sikharulidze to train them for a percentage of earnings, since there was still little support towards the end of the their competitive careers. I'm not sure if there was a professional rift between Totmianina and Vasiliev over money; they did end their personal relationship. I've never been able to follow the splits and movements of Soviet/Russian ice dance teams in the 80's and 90's, and have no idea if there was any dispute over money between Zazoui and Anissina/Peizerat.

Christopher Dean was probably the only OGM who could argue validly that he was as responsible for T/D's success as their coach.

SueSue
05-17-2012, 01:47 AM
The Glitterati, perhaps.

Lol!! Where does all this Illuminati crap come from anyway? I've heard teens spouting off about it and now its come to FSU. Geez.... :rolleyes:

aliceanne
05-17-2012, 09:16 PM
Can you give examples?

I'm not seeing a pattern here: most of the post-war singles went pro and toured immediately after winning the OGM, and when they returned, they returned to their coaches -- Petrenko, Boitano -- and the ones that stayed in -- Yagudin, Plushenko, Lysacek, Urmanov, Witt, Hughes remain(ed) with their coaches. Touring pros don't train full time in one place, and most coaches focus on their competitive skaters.

For pairs and dance, it's a bit different, because until the early '90's, the Soviet Pairs and Dance teams were dominant, and the option of switching coaches and who paid what to whom was dictated by government agencies and policies.

Moskvina had a deal with Berezhnaia and Sikharulidze to train them for a percentage of earnings, since there was still little support towards the end of the their competitive careers. I'm not sure if there was a professional rift between Totmianina and Vasiliev over money; they did end their personal relationship. I've never been able to follow the splits and movements of Soviet/Russian ice dance teams in the 80's and 90's, and have no idea if there was any dispute over money between Zazoui and Anissina/Peizerat.

Christopher Dean was probably the only OGM who could argue validly that he was as responsible for T/D's success as their coach.

Hamil/Fassi went to court over whether he was entitled to a percentage of her earnings

Hamilton/Laws - Hamilton worked on 3lutzes and 3axels after the Olys, but not with Laws

Baiul/Smievskaya - Oksana accused her of keeping too much of her money. They were supposedly like mother/daughter when she was competing.

Lipinski/Callaghan - the Lipinskis gave some unflattering interviews re: Callaghan and switched to Maurizi after the Olys. They claimed among other things that Callaghan wasn't supportive of Tara outside of her lessons.

Hughes/Wagner - Hughes quit skating for a year or 2 shortly after the Olys and then came back to another coach, she never mentioned Wagner again in spite of all the loving fluff pieces. Rumor had it that she quit to get out of her contract with Wagner - she wasn't expecting to win Olympic gold or make a lot of money when she signed.

I'm sure there are other reasons for the splits, but money is a big consideration. Athletes have relatively short careers and the opportunities to earn significant money are rare for both coaches and skaters.

Ziggy
05-17-2012, 09:46 PM
Lol!! Where does all this Illuminati crap come from anyway? I've heard teens spouting off about it and now its come to FSU. Geez.... :rolleyes:

http://vigilantcitizen.com/

Tin foil hats ftw! :cheer:

kwanfan1818
05-17-2012, 09:46 PM
I missed the Hamill/Fassi lawsuit.

Out of 61 post-war OGMs, you give 5 examples, of which only three -- Kim/Orser, Hamill/Fassi, and Baiul/Smievskaya -- were or appear to be about money or credit. The other three are conjecture at best and poor logic at the worst. From your own wording, it sounded like the Lipinskis wanted a coach to give their daughter more attention outside of the rink, which Callaghan wasn't interested in doing. The Hughes famously gave up opportunities for Hughes to make a lot more than she did from endorsements, so money wasn't their object.

There have been many splits over the amount of attention parents and skaters feel their coaches give them and whether the coaches are willing to put up with the demands parents make. Coaches have been known to fire skaters when the demands get too great or annoying.

You haven't made a case that "Olympic gold medalists more often than not split from their coaches after they win. There are often hard feelings because the coaches feel they deserve a share of the skater's future earnings and the skaters don't. When they are working toward a common goal all is lovey-dovey. Once they reach the goal they disagree over who did the work and who deserves the reward."

l'etoile
05-18-2012, 05:18 AM
This thread is much more informative than I thought.

EricRohmer
05-18-2012, 04:55 PM
That was followed by, in the summer of 2010 and weeks before the Orser-Kim split, JSF sending a group of Japanese junior skaters accompanied by the federation officials to the Cricket Club.

including Kozuka

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9140/93764704.jpg (with Yeaji Yun at the cricket club, 2010-06-01)
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/9593/80609775.jpg (with Rippon, 2010 summer)

aliceanne
05-19-2012, 06:14 PM
I missed the Hamill/Fassi lawsuit.

Out of 61 post-war OGMs, you give 5 examples, of which only three -- Kim/Orser, Hamill/Fassi, and Baiul/Smievskaya -- were or appear to be about money or credit. The other three are conjecture at best and poor logic at the worst. From your own wording, it sounded like the Lipinskis wanted a coach to give their daughter more attention outside of the rink, which Callaghan wasn't interested in doing. The Hughes famously gave up opportunities for Hughes to make a lot more than she did from endorsements, so money wasn't their object.

There have been many splits over the amount of attention parents and skaters feel their coaches give them and whether the coaches are willing to put up with the demands parents make. Coaches have been known to fire skaters when the demands get too great or annoying.

You haven't made a case that "Olympic gold medalists more often than not split from their coaches after they win. There are often hard feelings because the coaches feel they deserve a share of the skater's future earnings and the

skaters don't. When they are working toward a common goal all is lovey-dovey. Once they reach the goal they disagree over who did the work and who deserves the reward."

Mrs. Lipinski stated that SHE took care of Tara's needs outside of lesson time, and that Maurizi made lessons "fun" for Tara not Callaghan. She also stated that it was demoralizing for Tara when she saw the relationship other skaters had with their coach. If that isn't taking credit away from the coach, I don't
know what is. Callaghan for his part said he gave her the same attention as his other students.

Anyway, this is off topic. I'm not going blow by blow through every post- war skater/coach relationship. There wasn't always a lot of money or glory in skating, and I doubt the Soviet skaters had any choice in coaching relationships.

My observation has been that with elite skaters and coaches there is a lot of ego involved on both sides and the OGM is the ultimate prize. Each side will put up with a lot to reach that goal, but once they do, the dissatisfactions
often come out. Skaters often compare leaving an elite coach to getting a divorce.

Whether you agree or not, that is my opinion.

kwanfan1818
05-19-2012, 06:28 PM
My observation has been that with elite skaters and coaches there is a lot of ego involved on both sides and the OGM is the ultimate prize. Each side will put up with a lot to reach that goal, but once they do, the dissatisfactions
often come out. Skaters often compare leaving an elite coach to getting a divorce.


thiWhether you agree or not, that is my opinion.
But I wasn't disagreeing with this. I was asking you to substantiate your blanket statement about money., which you can't.