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kwanfan1818
05-12-2012, 09:09 PM
Miki Ando said somewhere that she and some of the other Japanese skaters -- I think Oda and Kozuka -- don't even speak Japanese with each other anymore: they speak English. Perhaps Hanyu wants to do what most of the top Japanese skaters have done during their careers: train with someone abroad with good facilities and lots of ice and learn (better) English, since it's used so much at competitions and shows.

Lanna
05-13-2012, 02:59 AM
(Can someone please tell me which agency signed Hanyu and when? PM is fine.. Cheers!)

Wait, so there's a huge :puppet: KONSPIRACY :puppet: masterminded by an :puppet: agency :puppet:... and you don't even know if Hanyu's signed away his soul to one yet? :rofl:

brina
05-13-2012, 03:05 AM
I love Hanyu's spirit.. he's just all over the place when he skates! If Orser can tame that, it will be a success.

Willowway
05-13-2012, 03:28 AM
Lanna made me laugh out loud and I needed that tonight! Thank you Lanna.

os168
05-13-2012, 02:38 PM
Wait, so there's a huge :puppet: KONSPIRACY :puppet: masterminded by an :puppet: agency :puppet:... and you don't even know if Hanyu's signed away his soul to one yet? :rofl:

I don't need to. It is called deductive reasoning. Like I know there's no WMD or Axis of Evil despite the propaganda spewed by those 'governs' the air waves. If you believed then the 'official' press release, could it be you could be wrong here too?

Besides, it is fairly simple to prove I am wrong. Just fact check it should be enough to suffice. :)



I love Hanyu's spirit.. he's just all over the place when he skates! If Orser can tame that, it will be a success.


Just don't tame it too much... I'd argue Hanyu's unique spirit is which makes him immensely watchable, unique and easy to root for, something I wish to see more men and especially women going at it bit more, less calculative and more wow.

Willowway
05-13-2012, 04:59 PM
It is called deductive reasoning.

The number of very bright posters on this board is notable. So I think we understand deductive reasoning. There's a big difference between deductive reasoning and jumping to unsupported conclusions.

I find your approach fascinating actually - you keep piling no information on misinformation on fictional assumptions and insist that taken together, it's a recognizable reasoning process (no info + wrong info/fictional assumptions = deductive reasoning?). I often say "maybe it's just me" but in this instance, I don't think it's just me.

I am hopeful (and this really is my only concern here) that impressionable fans who want to learn something about the business of skating understand that they need to go elsewhere for concrete information and an acccurate business model - your deductive reasoning isn't going to help them.

Lanna
05-13-2012, 05:20 PM
I don't need to. It is called deductive reasoning. Like I know there's no WMD or Axis of Evil despite the propaganda spewed by those 'governs' the air waves. If you believed then the 'official' press release, could it be you could be wrong here too?

Besides, it is fairly simple to prove I am wrong. Just fact check it should be enough to suffice. :)


Since you're interested in reasoning, may I perhaps introduce you to my friend Occam and his razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor)? :)

t.mann
05-13-2012, 06:22 PM
Just don't tame it too much... I'd argue Hanyu's unique spirit is which makes him immensely watchable, unique and easy to root for, something I wish to see more men and especially women going at it bit more, less calculative and more wow.

agree.

aftershocks
05-13-2012, 07:21 PM
^^ ITA, more technique and presentation needs to be polished among skaters, than there are spirits needing to be tamed. To all the skaters, I say: "Awaken your spirits, and 'spirit us away' next season!" (i.e., in spite of CoP/IJS stifling ...)

overedge
05-13-2012, 07:33 PM
I don't need to. It is called deductive reasoning. Like I know there's no WMD or Axis of Evil despite the propaganda spewed by those 'governs' the air waves. If you believed then the 'official' press release, could it be you could be wrong here too?


Ah-HA! So if IMG's secret agenda is like the 'propaganda' machine that tried to make us believe in WMD, then using deductive reasoning that means ..... Dubya Bush is really the :puppet: controlling the :EVILLE: Japanese federation and their :puppet: Orser!! That explains why we haven't seen him in public much lately, because he has been so busy making sure that :puppet: Hanyu is directed to the right place.

t.mann
05-14-2012, 04:30 AM
IMO, Hanyu / JSF(who pay Hanyu's training costs, after all) / Orser their own needs seem to fit together.
Anyways, this move appears to be good for Hanyu who needs appropriate facilities.

galaxy
05-14-2012, 09:47 AM
Isn't it JFS's custom and tradition they send their promising skaters (not everybody but) to foreign coaches? Nobu to Lee Barkel, Shizuka to Callaghan, Miki to Jenkins and then Morozov, Mao to Artunian, Takahashi to Morozov. In their cases nobody kicked up such a big fuss about it. Once the name "Orser" is involved.....

Poor Yuzuru..... Last year he had scary and awful experiences, saw a lot of painful things, his home was damaged, his rink was damaged. He once thought he had to quit skating. But he didn't give up. He hunted for a place to train while doing shows and earning money to continue skating. And this time from now on everytime he appears with Orser, some people will jump in and start to say "puppet", "evil agent and federation", and "conspiracies" things? He can have some peace.

allezfred
05-14-2012, 10:31 AM
os168, I suggest you call Plushenko and tell him that he's now a coach. I'm sure he'll be delighted to find out. :lol:

os168
05-14-2012, 03:41 PM
os168, I suggest you call Plushenko and tell him that he's now a coach. I'm sure he'll be delighted to find out. :lol:

Allezfred, I am not totally insane you know ;P (no more than the typical FSUers anyway :lol:)

This was a comment made by another poster Senorita from GS about Plushy being approached back in 2010. (Forgive me Senorita for not getting your permission, but it is relavent to this thread)



Originally Posted by seniorita
[Plush] has talked about Hanyu in many interviews like 2010:
“For example, the junior world champion Yuzuru Hanyu is very emotional, malleable, a brilliant athlete. He already performs the most complex elements. I was offered big money to work with him, but I refused. Firstly, because he will be my opponent...”


Sign of respect from Russian Overlord.. makes Hanyu totally wicked!!! (Awesome) :)

Re:Overedge

Purple.... and the fifth.




I am hopeful (and this really is my only concern here) that impressionable fans who want to learn something about the business of skating understand that they need to go elsewhere for concrete information and an acccurate business model - your deductive reasoning isn't going to help them.

I know it is going to be an unpopular view when I took the risk to highlight the business side of the sport and speculate its roles driving for certain outcomes, especially consider the overwhelming majority of activities IMG has likely to do with this sport and likely the readers/posters of this forum. Yet it is so apparent there is a huge disparity of power between skaters vs. federations and agency with their tug of wars that are not seen in other sport(rule changes, favouritism, controversies etc.) that took the sport away from what it should be, all about the athletes and what goes on the ice. It is hard to do this unless I try to explain the role of agency beyond the PR friendly slogans, and I happen to have great insider's knowledge to know where and how the big money are really made and opportunities can be exploited. There may be small variance from market to market, but brokering and player tactics are old as time and it is easy to assess this industry because you know who the major players are.

I have asked before what you think is likely the going rate for skating shows for an upcoming star like Rippon and Hanyu, the cost to manage them and whether these can be justify from merely 10% flat rate earnings given the types of shows and the number of shows they do a year, since I have already indicated they can't earn that much from prizes, and endorsements even if they medal. Why don't you put forward something, you don't have to name anyone in particular. Please bear in mind an established skater who earned his brilliant credentials to have become a PRO is no way going to command the same rate at their humble beginning when they are just starting out. No skaters get the same rate in the same show either, and it is likely a skater will modify their fees according to the type of shows based on their scale and budget throughout the year. Today's market is also very different from a few years ago. The type of market, the cost/budget running these shows, the scale for the show, where these show takes place. No one is going to pay more than they have to, and no skaters can command more than the market will allow them to, especially when the 2 of the biggest market for ice shows are ran by the very sport agency who also represent majority of the skaters in these 2 dominant countries.

An agency's role is suppose to represent their clients to get them the best deals and bargain hard. This cannot be achieved if they also act as their employer, which is in direct conflict of interests. Show are driven by profit. They can profit through great box office, but also from keeping the cost down. Even though they are earning from both pocket of business (shows and talent management), as long as they can earn more from one pocket to another, the weaker pocket are always going to get bad deal. Apart from that, it shouldn't be hard to work out how much can say Mirai, Rippon will have to earn to justify agency's business interests, consider agency rate typically charge around $400 an hour (maybe less in figure skating?) If agency spend 100 hours a year (again simple numbers for sake of argument - which works out 12.5 days a year), they would gain $40,000 from clients earnings per year (which is reasonable from how much agency can get from a lead), which means the skaters will have to earn $400,000 a year from skating show to justify the agency's time managing them.

Do you think an upcoming skaters can earn that much? Do you think agencies only spend 12.5 days manage their clients activity 1.5 weeks out of the entire year consider there are so many competitions to arrange per year to begin with let alone their training and day to day requirements? Clearly, that makes no sense. Again, I welcome you to challenge me with putting the right figures, but I personally believe 10% is very unlikely unless they also charge for additional services, or working extra deals behind the scene, or gain side benefit to justify their continued business interests. Let's take Patrick Chan, who's the most successful competitive skater in the world right now who likely to have skated the most at the biggest international shows worldwide, where he has the highest chance of commanding the most fee. If he still can't make ends meet based on his 250k+ training cost requirement a year having won practically everything, what are the chances agency able to earn enough so their management cost for Rippon, Abott, Mirai, Kanako can break even?
So the natural conclusions are

1) The agency charges more than 10%, or may be 10% + Additional service fees
2) Agency are also getting a slice of federation money/subsidy which makes their business worthwhile.
3) They save money from running their shows by guarantee exclusivity and low pay for their pool of talents.
4) Money can be earned from bespoke services, and big deals to be made behind the scene to anyone who want to buy, exploits the wants and needs of this sporting industry with their complexity and conflicting environment. (Similar to arms dealers.)

Skating is a brilliant sport, where athleticism and artistry can go hand in hand in the most cultured and refined way, yet the economic conditions for the skaters are positively primitive. Power in any situation lies in the organisation with the money, and the organisation who is most smart with earning their money. Competitive skaters are mostly young and vulnerable, and they rely on their friend and family's advice and support, federations, agencies and private sponsors. If they skaters were able to earn a great deal more to be independent, the federations will lose their power, influences and control, so will the sport agencies who also happen to run the biggest franchise shows in the richest nations that profit from their services, likely by keeping these costs low. These facts alone makes federation and agency's natural alliance probable and highly practical as well potentially lucrative.

The skaters in the mean time are getting a crappy deal where they get practically treated like employees serving both parties without the usual employee benefits (great pay, performance rewards, holiday pay, compensation, national insurance, tax contribution, unfair dismissals etc.). It is the equivalent of having Movie studio that has a division that represent their stars, but the stars cannot form a union/federation to bargain on their behalf, when the movie studio also teamed up with the union wanting to control the box office and who they want to appear on their big screen.

Consider the amount of rich federations involved, and the big business involved, it is an utter travesty the world championship prize only stand at $45k compared with any other sport (I read even the average curling competition regularly get over that easily... yes CURLING!!!! May be Patrick Chan should switch, he says he loves golf!) While it makes sense federation don't want to spend money that will ends up in some rival skater's pocket when it can be used more wisely to prop up their own overall national interests, it is still a rather selfish outcome for all skaters, since if their own skater wins, they may lose some control too (unless they also get a cut?). Sport agency don't really care about the prize money since it is established already little money can be made anyway, 45k ? 145k? hardly make any difference. ISU don't care as long as it can still keep collect federation money and have control and influence and gawd knows what (abuse of bad judging). So clearly, skaters lose since they have to be part of the system to get their trophy and can never get unionised. Heck... even Alissa's own federation doesn't seem to care about her interest to participate for 4CCs which she is the sole qualifier based on their own rules, shows what a bad deal skaters has continued having to put up with, with decisions that are often out of their own hands, and they need to worry more beyond spins and their flutz.

Look, I don't claim to know everything but I am interested in the answers, and do see credibility in trying to find the answers. It is impossible to get any truth unless we poke and prod into someone answering them or contribute collectively to get them. Surely it is human desire to see their sport as fair, and that no one is getting a bad deal or treated poorly.

One last thing.... Usually whenever in the industry, we inadvertently caused someone to lose their job, we will take the extra time and effort to help that person getting an even better job. I hope IMG or whoever has profited from brokering this deal, would able to support Abe and supply her with plenty of well funded students. She has already proven done a great deal of good for Hanyu with fantastic results. Japan is really lucky to have her.

Lanna
05-15-2012, 02:06 AM
I know it is going to be an unpopular view when I took the risk to highlight the business side of the sport and speculate its roles driving for certain outcomes, especially consider the overwhelming majority of activities IMG has likely to do with this sport and likely the readers/posters of this forum.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IMG is not astroturfing this discussion.



Yet it is so apparent there is a huge disparity of power between skaters vs. federations and agency with their tug of wars that are not seen in other sport(rule changes, favouritism, controversies etc.) that took the sport away from what it should be, all about the athletes and what goes on the ice.

For example? What rule changes have happened because of IMG pressure on the ISU?


It is hard to do this unless I try to explain the role of agency beyond the PR friendly slogans, and I happen to have great insider's knowledge to know where and how the big money are really made and opportunities can be exploited.

In which sport?



There may be small variance from market to market, but brokering and player tactics are old as time and it is easy to assess this industry because you know who the major players are.

Who are they?



I have asked before what you think is likely the going rate for skating shows for an upcoming star like Rippon and Hanyu, the cost to manage them and whether these can be justify from merely 10% flat rate earnings given the types of shows and the number of shows they do a year, since I have already indicated they can't earn that much from prizes, and endorsements even if they medal. Why don't you put forward something, you don't have to name anyone in particular. Please bear in mind an established skater who earned his brilliant credentials to have become a PRO is no way going to command the same rate at their humble beginning when they are just starting out. No skaters get the same rate in the same show either, and it is likely a skater will modify their fees according to the type of shows based on their scale and budget throughout the year. Today's market is also very different from a few years ago. The type of market, the cost/budget running these shows, the scale for the show, where these show takes place. No one is going to pay more than they have to, and no skaters can command more than the market will allow them to, especially when the 2 of the biggest market for ice shows are ran by the very sport agency who also represent majority of the skaters in these 2 dominant countries.

An agency's role is suppose to represent their clients to get them the best deals and bargain hard. This cannot be achieved if they also act as their employer, which is in direct conflict of interests. Show are driven by profit. They can profit through great box office, but also from keeping the cost down. Even though they are earning from both pocket of business (shows and talent management), as long as they can earn more from one pocket to another, the weaker pocket are always going to get bad deal. Apart from that, it shouldn't be hard to work out how much can say Mirai, Rippon will have to earn to justify agency's business interests, consider agency rate typically charge around $400 an hour (maybe less in figure skating?) If agency spend 100 hours a year (again simple numbers for sake of argument - which works out 12.5 days a year), they would gain $40,000 from clients earnings per year (which is reasonable from how much agency can get from a lead), which means the skaters will have to earn $400,000 a year from skating show to justify the agency's time managing them.

Do you think an upcoming skaters can earn that much? Do you think agencies only spend 12.5 days manage their clients activity 1.5 weeks out of the entire year consider there are so many competitions to arrange per year to begin with let alone their training and day to day requirements?

1) IMG is running the ISU competitions?
2) You seem to be suggesting that your model for how all this works makes no economic sense and the agencies would be losing money hand over fist. Then why do you assume this is the way it is?



Clearly, that makes no sense. Again, I welcome you to challenge me with putting the right figures, but I personally believe 10% is very unlikely unless they also charge for additional services, or working extra deals behind the scene, or gain side benefit to justify their continued business interests. Let's take Patrick Chan, who's the most successful competitive skater in the world right now who likely to have skated the most at the biggest international shows worldwide, where he has the highest chance of commanding the most fee. If he still can't make ends meet based on his 250k+ training cost requirement a year having won practically everything, what are the chances agency able to earn enough so their management cost for Rippon, Abott, Mirai, Kanako can break even?
So the natural conclusions are

1) The agency charges more than 10%, or may be 10% + Additional service fees
2) Agency are also getting a slice of federation money/subsidy which makes their business worthwhile.

Which federation is directly funding an outside talent agency? Please give names and details. :)


3) They save money from running their shows by guarantee exclusivity and low pay for their pool of talents.
4) Money can be earned from bespoke services, and big deals to be made behind the scene to anyone who want to buy, exploits the wants and needs of this sporting industry with their complexity and conflicting environment. (Similar to arms dealers.)

...IMG is like an arms dealer. In a way.

I guess this explains all the "puberty monster" comments. It was born from the radiation fall out from loose nukes.


Skating is a brilliant sport, where athleticism and artistry can go hand in hand in the most cultured and refined way, yet the economic conditions for the skaters are positively primitive. Power in any situation lies in the organisation with the money, and the organisation who is most smart with earning their money. Competitive skaters are mostly young and vulnerable, and they rely on their friend and family's advice and support, federations, agencies and private sponsors. If they skaters were able to earn a great deal more to be independent, the federations will lose their power, influences and control, so will the sport agencies who also happen to run the biggest franchise shows in the richest nations that profit from their services, likely by keeping these costs low. These facts alone makes federation and agency's natural alliance probable and highly practical as well potentially lucrative.

The skaters in the mean time are getting a crappy deal where they get practically treated like employees serving both parties without the usual employee benefits (great pay, performance rewards, holiday pay, compensation, national insurance, tax contribution, unfair dismissals etc.).

Unfair dismissals? With :huh: to the rest of it, too, but what do you mean by unfair dismissals?



It is the equivalent of having Movie studio that has a division that represent their stars, but the stars cannot form a union/federation to bargain on their behalf, when the movie studio also teamed up with the union wanting to control the box office and who they want to appear on their big screen.

So... skating is Hollywood before the studio system died?



Consider the amount of rich federations involved, and the big business involved, it is an utter travesty the world championship prize only stand at $45k compared with any other sport (I read even the average curling competition regularly get over that easily... yes CURLING!!!! May be Patrick Chan should switch, he says he loves golf!) While it makes sense federation don't want to spend money that will ends up in some rival skater's pocket when it can be used more wisely to prop up their own overall national interests, it is still a rather selfish outcome for all skaters, since if their own skater wins, they may lose some control too (unless they also get a cut?). Sport agency don't really care about the prize money since it is established already little money can be made anyway, 45k ? 145k? hardly make any difference. ISU don't care as long as it can still keep collect federation money and have control and influence and gawd knows what (abuse of bad judging). So clearly, skaters lose since they have to be part of the system to get their trophy and can never get unionised. Heck... even Alissa's own federation doesn't seem to care about her interest to participate for 4CCs which she is the sole qualifier based on their own rules, shows what a bad deal skaters has continued having to put up with, with decisions that are often out of their own hands, and they need to worry more beyond spins and their flutz.

Look, I don't claim to know everything but I am interested in the answers, and do see credibility in trying to find the answers.

And as we say on Wikipedia, we'd like some citations, too, especially since you claim to know a lot about the industry.



It is impossible to get any truth unless we poke and prod into someone answering them or contribute collectively to get them. Surely it is human desire to see their sport as fair, and that no one is getting a bad deal or treated poorly.

There's a difference between the organized sport governing bodies and IMG.