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sleepypanda
05-07-2012, 01:34 AM
IFS's fb page says it heard Hanyu is arriving in Toronto tomorrow. Not sure where the info is coming from, but I hope we hear something soon!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/International-Figure-Skating/278550292537

bek
05-07-2012, 02:58 AM
I think Hanyu shouldn't be written off for Gold in Sochi, nor regulated to the Bronze medal either. He's talking about adding in a quad sal into both his short and long programs this season, and I have a feeling he's more likely than either Chan or Dai to get a second quad consistent. He gets a second quad, that could very well be a game changer. Especially when you add in that Chan's "dominance" with his error ridden skates has caused a lot of controversy.

I think Hanyu very easily could surpass Dai by 2014 too. I frankly don't get all the agent talk. This strikes me as a rather niche sport.

kittyjake5
05-07-2012, 12:28 PM
IFS's fb page says it heard Hanyu is arriving in Toronto tomorrow. Not sure where the info is coming from, but I hope we hear something soon!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/International-Figure-Skating/278550292537

Thanks. I think I read somewhere that he will be giving an interview sometime this month.

aftershocks
05-07-2012, 06:43 PM
...
Yours truly,
- Apparently a freak.... and loving it!

(Am I the only one who bothered to read the tag line of this forum: Crazy Delirius Figure skating? ... it must mean something else in a different country then, boring, dry, politically correct zzzz...)

:rofl: :watch:

overedge
05-07-2012, 07:39 PM
My assumption is based on an agency business model assuming if they have an exclusive agreement with the coaches (non standard) in their hub centre, then money can be earned from the coach's side. This wouldn't apply if the coach is not signed with the agency. Otherwise if their client decide to move 10 times in 10 days, who's going to pay for agency's work on this? Agency is not a charity business, it has costs and expenses every time it do something. Just how do you think Sport Agencies make money from big name sign-ons/new team member fixtures?


By signing many, many athletes - and often other types of performers and personalities - and taking a percentage of their earnings. They don't just rely on a few representations to bring in the $$$$. Willowway is right and you are wrong about these "extra fees". People represented by ANY kind of talent-related agency, not just a sports agency, are generally advised NOT to sign with an agency that charges extra fees like the one you describe, because those sorts of fees may be a sign that the agency is not doing a good enough job promoting its clients to survive on its percentages alone. (And in some places it is illegal to charge any additional fee other than a small yearly fee to cover the cost of administering the client's records.)


10% is California law for talent agencies in California, outside these walls with non US nationals with none standard requirements, I'd assume it would be MUCH higher than that, for the simple fact it would take a lot more time and effort and costs to manage these clients.

Well, you don't see tons of talent agencies in California going out of business because they can only charge 10%, do you? It would be very unusual to charge more than this, if the agency is doing a good job in finding work for their clients.


I dont' see how the PSA regulation would comes to this, when nothing unethical has been breached. There are no soliciting involved nor have I ever claimed. And since when does US regulations apply to the whole world?

From the PSA website:



It is considered solicitation for a professional to contact a skating student, not their own, when a significant motive for doing so is the personal gain of the skating professional. Solicitation includes contact directly, indirectly or through a third party, in person, by telephone, e-mail, social media, letter, or other means directed to a specific recipient.


This makes it pretty clear that a third party, like an agency, contacting a coach to tell them that a skater is going to come to them *is* solicitation. Not to mention that it would most certainly be unethical for an agency to tell a skater who their coach is going to be, because that would interfere with the skater's ability to work with the coach of their choice. And there is no reason to label this "US regulations", because coaches all around the world are professionals and should be treated like professionals.

ProgramerUSFS
05-08-2012, 06:46 AM
Overedge, I just have to say I love your quote by Beavis, its so appropriate.... ;)

t.mann
05-09-2012, 08:33 AM
IFS's fb page says it heard Hanyu is arriving in Toronto tomorrow. Not sure where the info is coming from, but I hope we hear something soon!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/International-Figure-Skating/278550292537

Hanyu's May 6 press conference(Japan) was cancelled?
And he is now in Toronto?

os168
05-09-2012, 02:00 PM
I wonder what happened with the press conference. Perhaps (hopefully) Hanyu isn't being sure himself? It would seem Hanyu want to take his time to experience Toronto first and see how the chemistry goes with Orser. Very sensible to try before you buy, good for him.

RE: Overedge

If you have read my posts correctly, you'd see the percentages and the 'extra chargeable services' I am referring to comes from the BUYER or the SPONSOR of talent's services, not the talents themselves. I have outlined different ways agency can make their money, and the rate are likely to be structured in accordance to the level of products and services and earning potentials including bespoke services. It is a bit simplistic to focus only on the percentage alone without considering if it is a buy or sell, or maybe it is a lucrative endorsement deal that may take a year to work on which the agency is likely to demand more due to the fact it takes great deal of work and time involved, and the high risk of deals falling through (when they do, all time is wasted, nothing is earned). IMO, it is VERY unlikely the agency can profit PURELY based on the flat capped 10% rate you are suggesting and survives based on winnings, earning and sponsorship deals. Figure skating has a tiny scale of business compares to those of Hollywood showbiz - Where CAA did big business rely on even smaller % than 10 in the 90s.

For the sake of argument however, let's assuming everything you said is correct, and my theories is completely wrong. When in doubt, just follow the money. Assume an agency like IMG were able to represent 100% of all skaters among ALL major ISU competitors in the whole world. In singles, pairs, and ice dancing. In other words they have 100% market share and no other competition.

Here's an approx breakdown of all the prize money for 2008/2009 season (Seniors) for the 3 Major ISU skating competitions according to this Wiki and this link

http://925.nl/images/2012-01/1509-prize-money-isu-championships-2009.pdf

Prize in US dollars, K = 1,000.

Grand prix series$272k
Winner $25k (Couples split)
(Top 6 get prize money)

World Championship $ 710k
Winner Singles $45k, Pairs/Ice Dancing $67.5k,
(Top 12 get prize money)

Four Continents $250k
Winner get $22.5k
(Top 12 get prize money)

That makes the entire pool of prize money for the 3 major ISU competitions stands at $1.23million. (I didn't bother count the European championships since IMG primarily represent Japanese skaters and US skaters according to their website.)

By charging flat rate of 10% with no extra fees or subsidies, the maximum they can hope to earn from skaters's winning is maximum $123k from 100% market representation. How much is there left after deducting the running cost of an agency at some of the most expensive cities in the world (New York, Tokyo for figure skating to start with?) when there are the other costs to consider: Client Entertainment Cost, Management cost, Transport cost, Accounting Cost, Operation Cost, PR/ Media, Employee salary and bonus (New York, Japan, Europe), Utility costs, Taxes. What about federation's cut? Are these 10% before or after their cut? (I doubt 123k would even cover the entertainment costs, let alone a sport agents' salary.)

Now let's simplify this model further by give this agency even better advantages. Let's assume the agency ONLY represent the prize winners as clients, so no operation budget are wasted looking after those who do not perform other than the top 12 winning skaters. That makes minimum 24 prize winners in singles: 12 in men, 12 in women; then 12 in pairs, 12 in dance. That is 48 client accounts, and 96 people in their talent books. 96 groups of logistics from approximately 7/8/9 countries where the sport agency need to manage and follow up with federation, coaches, choreographers, costumes, music edit, physio/health, ice shows, public appearances, endorsement deals/sponsorships and other skater business relations, PR. Just how big of a team do you think it would takes to manage an operations of this size full time to gain maximum from winnings? Or even maybe half of its size? Or even quarter its size? How many people should IMG put their employees in this sport when the maximum they can hope to earn from them winning is 123k?

There are other minor competitions of course, nationals, exhibition competition (world team trophy for example)... but even if the prize doubled or even tripled the maximum 100% winning amount, it still wouldn't cover the basic running costs, let alone profit. Now consider this 100% market share does not exist, when there are skaters like Patrick Chan, Yuna Kim, Alissa Czisny, and the European/Russian Skaters that are not represented by an agency like IMG who regularly occupies substantial chunk of the prize money for themselves out of the maximum $123k potential pot money that can be gained. Then you should have got a rough idea of how much An Agency can realistically earn from winnings. And actually looking at the list of their clients, IMG primarily represent US and Japan only, so this shrunk the pool of prize money even further.

Clearly, the above shows there's literally NO MONEY can be earned winning alone. So how do agents REALLY profit? Sponsorship and Ice show alone are enough to cover it? In this climate, and the dwindling audiences in North America and bad economy? You sure?

Take the ice shows, just how much income can they generate per skater? A few hundred dollars per a few big events per year is hardly going to cover a skater's entire year of management cost? Say a skater skate for shows 10 shows $1000 a day, That means the agency only stand to earn $1000 dollars per candidate max per year. How long do you think it takes to organise a talent to travel on a shows and manage their schedules, transport, insurance, board, billings from start to finish per show? I estimate 3-4 hours from start to finish after emails phone calls, managing paper work then accounting, that means sport agents stand to only bill approx $25-33.3 per hour in New York time before tax and expenses? Is this feasible?

How about sponsorships? Although theoretically there's no ceiling to the amount of sponsorship one can get, but just how many commercially viable stars in this sport can really command these big deals belong to the agency? If there's only 10% flat fee derived purely from earnings, then it would appear 90% of all their profit comes from their no.1 talent/candidate who earn 10million in sponsorships per year. If then the agency can then stand to earn $1 million from represent this client alone. Is it then really inconceivable then the agency will do what it can to protect this client, include some form of retaliation against her rival, including sabotage or revenge for its own business survival? I don't know the answer, although I have my suspicions....I am a freak afterall!

How about federation funds? Maybe that is the most critical question? Who has the power to buy their way to maximise their OGM chances? Who wants to buy an OGM? Well... the likely hood is probably EVERYBODY!!! Whether they can afford one, or has the means to get it is another matter.

Interesting enough, The total prize money for World Team Trophy is $1,000,000.

A MILLION DOLLARS!!! Who fund this money?? In a way, it is the best sort of sport competition, where everybody wins as long as you take part.
1st place $200k
2nd place $170k
3rd place $160k
4th place $150k
5th place $150k
6th place $130k

Not bad for showing up and stand there. The last place get better deal than coming 4th at world championship (assume they are 1/10th of a team, the less team member the more for them.)

We have often discussed figure skating is a political sport, but in truth, political influence can not exist in a vacuum without these influences to be carried out by someone. Just who do you think carry out these influences? Who are the ones who can financially reaps reward off the sports behind the scenes while the hard working skaters are killing themselves going after those precious fabulous gold medals? And even if they succeed it is still not enough to cover their training? e.g Patrick Chan?

The reality of the world of sport meeting big business can be harsh and cruel, but 'money' is a universal language that is easily understood better than 'English'. IMO the facilitators of this sport certainly include the big monopolised sport agency who can play roles of the negotiator, deal breaker, escrow agent, they are the buffer to protect the talents from uglies behind the scenes the movers and shakers. They are the constant gardener that tends to the 'weeds' to landscape their perfect garden so their 'clients and associates' can readily reap the fruits of their labour.



From the PSA website:
This makes it pretty clear that a third party, like an agency, contacting a coach to tell them that a skater is going to come to them *is* solicitation. Not to mention that it would most certainly be unethical for an agency to tell a skater who their coach is going to be, because that would interfere with the skater's ability to work with the coach of their choice. And there is no reason to label this "US regulations", because coaches all around the world are professionals and should be treated like professionals.

Perhaps you'd care to remind that to IMG/Orser. Orser showed the following email he wrote to his formal pupil word for word:


"I am sure you have heard some of the rumours that have been going around Mao. I just want you to know that I am loyal to you and am always here for you. Her agency did inquire about me (and team) working with her, I told them you are my first priority. I have to say I was flattered she has an interest, but your skating comes first"

He then went on Canadian TV saying no offer has been made from anyone from Mao's side. Then JSF also came out strongly denying this. 2 seasons later he is teaching the next golden child of JSF. Who's the unethical one here?

-----------

The essence of knowledge is, having it, to apply it; not having it, to confess your ignorance. - Confucious.

Willowway
05-09-2012, 02:30 PM
Take the ice shows, just how much income can they generate per skater? A few hundred dollars per a few big events per year is hardly going to cover a skater's entire year of management cost? Say a skater skate for shows 10 shows $1000 a day,

Obviously you like to entertain yourself by writing long posts. You are not correct in most of your assumptions and your assumptions about what a skater can earn from commercially produced ice shows are way, way off. If you knew the first thing about the business (where the money comes from and how) this might be an interesting discussion.

allezfred
05-09-2012, 02:40 PM
os168, I think it may be time to remove your tinfoil hat.

VALuvsMKwan
05-09-2012, 02:44 PM
os168, I think it may be time to remove your tinfoil hat.

I know that you don't have this luxury as an admin, but Ignore has certainly been my friend in this situation (except where quotes appear, and then :eek: and :rolleyes: ).

os168
05-09-2012, 02:52 PM
Obviously you like to entertain yourself by writing long posts. You are not correct in most of your assumptions and your assumptions about what a skater can earn from commercially produced ice shows are way, way off. If you knew the first thing about the business (where the money comes from and how) this might be an interesting discussion.

It is an approximate guess based on means of average competitive skater, not the very top nor a pro. Even if they command 10 times the amount, the stats still doesn't work out imo. I welcome you to make another thread on this though with some facts to support it (other than i am right you are wrong type of argument), since i am curious of this myself.


Re: Allezfred

Message received , Tin foil in the bin.

overedge
05-09-2012, 03:49 PM
RE: Overedge


Come back and discuss this when you have some facts that actually have some relationship to how ice shows are organized and how much skaters get paid in them. And maybe learn a little about how talent agencies work while you are at it.

os168
05-09-2012, 05:20 PM
Come back and discuss this when you have some facts that actually have some relationship to how ice shows are organized and how much skaters get paid in them. And maybe learn a little about how talent agencies work while you are at it.

Right...so after I broken down what little earning can be gained from winnings or likely of sponsorship deals. You are still insisting 10% flat rate is enough to cover from doing ice shows, because 'ALL' competitive's skaters like Hanyu or Rippon get the same rate as the PRO STARS who earned their medals before doing shows full time.

It might be better for you learn some business common sense to know when the money doesn't add up beyond making derogatory blanket statements with nothing to support it. Btw just want to be clear, we are talking about sport agencies not talent agencies.

Willowway
05-09-2012, 06:05 PM
Btw just want to be clear, we are talking about sport agencies not talent agencies.

Sorry - each time someone corrects you (and you said you wanted your assumptions to be challenged if they were wrong) you shift your assumptions - you were yelling about IMG and now it's just sports agencies? Those hardly exist - most ice skaters (and other sports talent like tennis, golf, basketball, soccer players, etc.) are signed with talent agencies but in their sports divisions. You just keep shifting your assumptions and arguments sideways - it doesn't work.

You don't have a basic understanding of the amounts of money involved or how agencies (of any description) work, and people are allowed to point that out. We don't have to open another thread nor are we obligated educate you (we might want to discuss, yes, if one could sustain an actual conversation with you) - if you are still "curious" and don't have the information, how can you pontificate on the subject? I just don't get it but that's me.