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t.mann
05-03-2012, 03:27 PM
There is also a jump coach in Hanyu's homerink.
His name is Soshi Tanaka. I remember he was a good jumper.
Hanyu had learned jump technique mainly from him.

Oh, thanks for explanation!

Willowway
05-04-2012, 12:43 AM
Yes please ask and confirm.

I said I'd do it and I did. Coaches, certainly in the US, do not have representation (and not likely outside the US). If you as a skater want to work with a particular coach, you call that coach directly, not an agent or manager. This tradition syncs with the PSA (organization to which all professional coaches belong) guidelines around coaches soliciting (or going out to get) talent - totally against the rules. Now, I'm not naive enough to think it never happens but it doesn't out in the open and isn't common practice - the student must approach the coach, the coach doesn't ask the student to come aboard either directly or through another person like an agent. If a coach poaches a student from another coach, professional sanctions are in order.

ChiquitaBanana
05-04-2012, 02:58 AM
Just like show business, skaters and coaches may be the public faces of the sports but the real influential people are likely the agents and the studios or who ever has the money to make things happen or gain the most.


if you want to look into drama, let say the real influence people are surely not the agents and agencies, but the national governing bodies, in some cases. Figure skating is sure less than showbusiness in this case. Agents are there when you are famous and winning medlas, not before, rarely. The ones being the big boss is the federation, pushing you to competitions abroad, giving assignments to skaters, choosing their national team, etc.

Ziggy
05-04-2012, 03:05 AM
There is also a jump coach in Hanyu's homerink.
His name is Soshi Tanaka. I remember he was a good jumper.
Hanyu had learned jump technique mainly from him.

Thank you for the information. :)

os168
05-04-2012, 02:04 PM
I said I'd do it and I did. Coaches, certainly in the US, do not have representation (and not likely outside the US). If you as a skater want to work with a particular coach, you call that coach directly, not an agent or manager. This tradition syncs with the PSA (organization to which all professional coaches belong) guidelines around coaches soliciting (or going out to get) talent - totally against the rules. Now, I'm not naive enough to think it never happens but it doesn't out in the open and isn't common practice - the student must approach the coach, the coach doesn't ask the student to come aboard either directly or through another person like an agent. If a coach poaches a student from another coach, professional sanctions are in order.

(Okay I know i said I wasn't to going to write anymore on this topic but I feel i have to respond to this. Forgive me, I will keep a lid on it I promise :drama:)

Thanks for checking the facts but a few issues got really muddled. I never have implied it has anything to do with solicitation from any coach direct - which would be just plain wrong, and I certainly have NEVER accused Orser of going after another student. Nonono....

The standard of practice you have outlined does not apply here. For starters, I highly doubt Hanyu woke up one morning last month and thought

'Wow now I am a world championship bronze medallist, I am going to call up Brian Orser in Canada in my best English to see if he is free and he can teach me!' Then Brian goes 'YES!!... luckily I 'happen' to be free, come over but you have to fire your current coach first!' Then Hanyu goes 'OKAY No Problem! I will tell my agent so they can do a press release!'

I am happy you are able to confirm the general practice which shows coaches are not normally represent by an agency, and that it should be a direct relationship, just like what Orser / Kim's relationship had been before the Olympics. But the whole point of the speculations was based on the fact a rival's agency did sign up Orser as a coach, that it is NOT standard practice, and what followed are extraordinary series of circumstances, which now result a formal rival's OGM coach coaching their home OGM contender. Timing, events, conditions need to be in place for this to happen. There's nothing standard about this relationship.

It is easy to examine these issues using critical thinking to determine if these claims are true or false.

1. What possible benefits has IMG to gain by sign as Orser as a coach?
2. What possible benefits has IMG's clients to gain with Orser sharing the same agency?
3. Who stand to lose from this signing and why?
4. What possible benefits has Orser to sign an agency to represent his services?

The answers are fairly straightforward. I hardly have to spell it out.

Does IMG financially gain from sign Orser as a coach, Yes or No?

If No. No money has been gained by IMG's signing of Orser's coach services - which they have exclusive rights to, then I am talking complete nonsense here.

If Yes. Then they totally failed him as an agency, since it is THEIR JOB to manage their client expectations and manage their business relations to ensure everyone is happy and knows exactly what is going on. An Agency's job is not to part ways with his biggest and highest paying clients and then decide to run a big press campaign about it, instead of hushing discreetly like how it would NORMALLY work in the interest of their clients using basic common sense, like Hanyu with Abe. Again, it all comes down to money. Who stand to benefit from this big split financially despite the fact it is 'financially bad for their client', or perhaps it was strategic because there are something planned ahead already and they know money is not a problem?

In summary, what you found out as a standard practice does not apply here. The economy of scale for general amateur level skating /coaching does not warrant the role of agencies since there are too little money involved. At world class level however - where there are big money involved with national interests/rivalry conflicts that can be exploited, there exist the role of agencies who can manage complex issues, needs, wants, set none standard terms and conditions to be able to broke these deals discreetly. So that in the case when a deal fall through (and they often do), nobody can get hurt... well in theory anyway.

RumbleFish
05-04-2012, 06:03 PM
BTW, who cares if Hanyu is coached by Orser or whoever?
There are number of skaters who are far stronger than him and I would be surprised if he makes the top 5 in Sochi.
Even at his best, he won't get near halfway decent Chan or Plushy.

os168
05-04-2012, 06:12 PM
BTW, who cares if Hanyu is coached by Orser or whoever?
There are number of skaters who are far stronger than him and I would be surprised if he makes the top 5 in Sochi.
Even at his best, he won't get near halfway decent Chan or Plushy.

Sooooooo disagree!!!!! Hanyu is awesome so shuudaap :P

topaz
05-05-2012, 12:17 AM
I am so not happy about this. I don't like Orser's style and grooming of his skaters other than Kim. I was indifferent to Javier's skating before Orser now I'm don't like AT ALL. Orser has horrible packaging of his skaters except for Kim. He didn't help Rippon packaging nor Gao.

ProgramerUSFS
05-05-2012, 01:58 AM
I am so not happy about this. I don't like Orser's style and grooming of his skaters other than Kim. I was indifferent to Javier's skating before Orser now I'm don't like AT ALL. Orser has horrible packaging of his skaters except for Kim. He didn't help Rippon packaging nor Gao.

I completely disagree with you. Each skater that has switched to Orser, has looked better then they did previously. Now I will agree that he hasn't solved all the skaters issues. I am not sure that any coach can make the skater do things they don't want to. When you have skaters who have left and done better then with him, you might have a leg to stand on. But you don't really have any skaters who have done better after Orser at the present. And this is why I disagree with what you are saying.

RumbleFish
05-05-2012, 02:00 AM
Sooooooo disagree!!!!! Hanyu is awesome so shuudaap :P

Hanyu won't even make the Japanese team for Sochi, if Oda could learn to count to three and Kozuka manages to look up to the crowd. :P

ProgramerUSFS
05-05-2012, 02:15 AM
(Okay I know i said I wasn't to going to write anymore on this topic but I feel i have to respond to this. Forgive me, I will keep a lid on it I promise :drama:)

Thanks for checking the facts but a few issues got really muddled. I never have implied it has anything to do with solicitation from any coach direct - which would be just plain wrong, and I certainly have NEVER accused Orser of going after another student. Nonono....

The standard of practice you have outlined does not apply here. For starters, I highly doubt Hanyu woke up one morning last month and thought

'Wow now I am a world championship bronze medallist, I am going to call up Brian Orser in Canada in my best English to see if he is free and he can teach me!' Then Brian goes 'YES!!... luckily I 'happen' to be free, come over but you have to fire your current coach first!' Then Hanyu goes 'OKAY No Problem! I will tell my agent so they can do a press release!'

I am happy you are able to confirm the general practice which shows coaches are not normally represent by an agency, and that it should be a direct relationship, just like what Orser / Kim's relationship had been before the Olympics. But the whole point of the speculations was based on the fact a rival's agency did sign up Orser as a coach, that it is NOT standard practice, and what followed are extraordinary series of circumstances, which now result a formal rival's OGM coach coaching their home OGM contender. Timing, events, conditions need to be in place for this to happen. There's nothing standard about this relationship.

It is easy to examine these issues using critical thinking to determine if these claims are true or false.

1. What possible benefits has IMG to gain by sign as Orser as a coach?
2. What possible benefits has IMG's clients to gain with Orser sharing the same agency?
3. Who stand to lose from this signing and why?
4. What possible benefits has Orser to sign an agency to represent his services?

The answers are fairly straightforward. I hardly have to spell it out.

Does IMG financially gain from sign Orser as a coach, Yes or No?

If No. No money has been gained by IMG's signing of Orser's coach services - which they have exclusive rights to, then I am talking complete nonsense here.

If Yes. Then they totally failed him as an agency, since it is THEIR JOB to manage their client expectations and manage their business relations to ensure everyone is happy and knows exactly what is going on. An Agency's job is not to part ways with his biggest and highest paying clients and then decide to run a big press campaign about it, instead of hushing discreetly like how it would NORMALLY work in the interest of their clients using basic common sense, like Hanyu with Abe. Again, it all comes down to money. Who stand to benefit from this big split financially despite the fact it is 'financially bad for their client', or perhaps it was strategic because there are something planned ahead already and they know money is not a problem?

In summary, what you found out as a standard practice does not apply here. The economy of scale for general amateur level skating /coaching does not warrant the role of agencies since there are too little money involved. At world class level however - where there are big money involved with national interests/rivalry conflicts that can be exploited, there exist the role of agencies who can manage complex issues, needs, wants, set none standard terms and conditions to be able to broke these deals discreetly. So that in the case when a deal fall through (and they often do), nobody can get hurt... well in theory anyway.

I find your information very interesting, as I always have thought behind all things, there is stuff that we don't really know. However, thinking about what you are saying, I found that this Samantha Cabiles mentioned perviously in this thread must also be associated with IMG. If you look at her LinkedIN profile from an account, IMG has been showing along with other marketing executives in her other people viewed area. I even saw at one point the Executive VP at Nike who must be connected to her. Her contacts are protected, but she has over 500 marketing and business connections within her LinkedIN profile, tweets in four languages, and has a facebook and professional web site.

I am wondering if IMG or some other professional companies are involved in hopeful international skaters such as her?

ProgramerUSFS
05-05-2012, 02:18 AM
Hanyu won't even make the Japanese team for Sochi, if Oda could learn to count to three and Kozuka manages to look up to the crowd. :P

:rofl: I just love this site, you guys and your arguments make my nights less boring. Man I have to get a life.

You actually think this?

RumbleFish
05-05-2012, 02:51 AM
:rofl: I just love this site, you guys and your arguments make my nights less boring. Man I have to get a life.

You actually think this?

Believe it or not, I am serious about things I say here.
Oda would have been a multiple world medalist if he knew how to count, and Kozuka actually won a world medal last year in Moscow without looking up to the crowd.

os168
05-05-2012, 03:22 AM
Hanyu won't even make the Japanese team for Sochi, if Oda could learn to count to three and Kozuka manages to look up to the crowd. :P

OH yeah? ... well I have news for you. Hanyu can count to FOUR already!!!! Has mesmerizing lazer beam eyes with the the crowds (did you not see his epic FS stare end pose?) So he is ahead of them both already!!

He just need to develop his Patrick Chan psychedelic eyes to hypnotize the judges to reward him the high PCS, which he is perfectly of doing, having proven to be a great sponge his entire career. Soaking up every great skater's best qualities and that will certainly include Patrick's 'best' quality next year ;)

... That is unless someone totally mess it up for him. :mad: I am still gutted he is loosing Abe, and question the sanity of the decision makers. Just think of the 24 hours return flight time from Tokyo to Toronto EVEYRTIME he get coaching, and with no one familiar with his conditions in Japan to supervise him on a day to day and to be the coach's eyes. Feels like this crazy arrangement can only come from the likes of greedy agents and inconsiderate bureaucrats. It didn't work for Mao, so why do they insist on Hanyu?

os168
05-05-2012, 03:55 AM
I find your information very interesting, as I always have thought behind all things, there is stuff that we don't really know. However, thinking about what you are saying, I found that this Samantha Cabiles mentioned perviously in this thread must also be associated with IMG. If you look at her LinkedIN profile from an account, IMG has been showing along with other marketing executives in her other people viewed area. I even saw at one point the Executive VP at Nike who must be connected to her. Her contacts are protected, but she has over 500 marketing and business connections within her LinkedIN profile, tweets in four languages, and has a facebook and professional web site.

I am wondering if IMG or some other professional companies are involved in hopeful international skaters such as her?

I don't think any big agency would be interested in invest in non ranking skaters unless it is based on a strong personal recommendation. There's little or no money in it for the similar amount of work as an elite skater. But I wouldn't be surprised if most of the cricket club's top/upcoming skaters are signed by IMG already, and likely Yuka Sato's Detroit camp too. It makes good business sense since it would simplify management and and cost saving to develop these camps into hots spots around the world. So that every time a skater 'feel' like they need to swap coach, then IMG can just shift one skaters from one camp to the next, and they can keep on swap the skaters student spots like in a daisy chain and keep on charge clients for new placement, new sign on fee etc every time they move, when it is really just their existing network.