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View Full Version : Virtue and Moir #17 - Love 'n' life



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Bournekraatzfan
04-24-2012, 04:53 AM
Now, watch this! i borrowed the clip from the Polka preview and made a new one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-SDJqkgRIc&feature=youtu.be

I'm sure you'll love the music! it's an amazing, infectious jig called "The Irish washerwoman" and well, i think it would make the best SD of the season :swoon:

I have always loved that jig! I would love it if someone used it for their SD next season (and it is played at different tempos, so you could find a section that works and edit). martyross, you seem to be doing what was previously thought impossible--getting us excited about the polka!

also, thanks everyone! I will report back to you on the show whenever I get the chance, though I will warn you that I will likely be speechless for a number of days:)

Scrufflet
04-24-2012, 04:57 AM
I know what you mean. It can be difficult to navigate when you love both teams (especially since I love V&M a bit more)...I find most of the discussion in there interesting and respectful, but some posts are unkind toward V&M and/or their fans and that is unfortunate. Again, it is just a small group of posters (the same ones every time) who engage in that kind of behaviour, and, ironically enough, some of them are the first ones to accuse V&M fans and others of tearing down D&W. I sometimes feel awkward saying something because that is construed by some as ubering V&M (and ubering in this case has a negative connotation). I just wish things didn't have to be this way among fans. There is so much great skating to love, why the hate?

Thank you so much for saying this! I couldn't agree more. I'm getting sick of all the nastiness. I adore both teams.
I'm going to SOI too. I have on ice tickets and am really excited about this year's show. I'm even going to the Meet & Greet! Never been to one of those so it should be fun.
I too will add what I can from the show.

Scrufflet
04-24-2012, 05:13 AM
Like many of you, just finished reading the blog and I was surprised at my reaction. I laughed my head off...because that is the reaction that it deserves.

I think the reason that V/M and Chan are receiving all the hate is that they are currently the best and both are Canadians - it's just not right to have Canada lead in 2 disciplines. What makes it worse is that D/W is really the US's best (if not only) shot for gold. I'm pretty sure if W/P were the top dance team, they would receive the same hate, if not now, eventually.

You make excellent points re V/M and Chan. Remember years ago when it seemed the Russians were the bad guys? They won just about everything in sight and there were all the "Russian judge" joles circulating. So now Canada is on the hot seat because we're doing so well in two disciplines. I predict that this will continue until Sochi. V/M and Chan will probably retire and then Japan will be dominant and on the hotseat. I see traces of anti-Japanese sentiment starting to appear. So sad and so predictable. Why can't we just enjoy the skating?
And what about a thought for those nations who never get near the podium and yet keep coming out year after year? Wouldn't it be interesting if one year the medals were all won by places like Mexico, Australia, Austria, Turkey, etc.? Wouldn't the fur fly then!

Shayii
04-24-2012, 05:19 AM
I'm not so sure. W/P have an in your face crowd-pleasing style and that counts for a lot. D/W's skating has a big excitement factor to it and it's not suprising that they would have wider audience appeal than V/M with their subtle style. I think a number of people (like this particular blogger) don't get V/M at all and are completely mystified at their scores, which leads to all the hating. They're not for everyone and that's fine, but it would be nice if people could accept that a performance that they personally didn't like could legitimately deserve to win.

The thing about ice dance is that there are so many aspects that go into analyzing a performance and it's largely subjective. Depending on what you emphasize, what's important to you, you could make a good case for how D/W deserved to win worlds. Then again, you could also make a good case for D/W being third in the SD and V/M winning by an even wider margin. Sometimes the judges reward things that you don't value highly or barely notice, doesn't mean that your favourites were automatically robbed, maybe just a difference of opinion on what ice dance should be. I'll admit that D/W's brand of ice dancing doesn't appeal much to me at all and I don't particularly want ice dance to go in that direction. It doesn't mean they are gifted their scores, even if it does feel that way sometimes...
Wow you need to post more! They way you articulated this is amazing and I agree with this, all of this.

The hatred and nastiness the blogger spews at them is so unwarranted, it's like she has something personal against them or something. I would feel the same if this article was directed towards any team btw.

puglover
04-24-2012, 05:33 AM
I recall the first year Tessa and Scott competed to VT at Worlds - I think they came 7th - Paul Martini was commenting for CBC and he said something to the affect that a lot of skaters push it out to the audience but Tessa and Scott draw you in and you feel like you just got a private look at something special. Maybe not everyone gets that kind of performer but I think for those who do it is so moving. I felt like Kaitlyn and Andrew approached that kind of performance this year with Je Suis Malade.

Bournekraatzfan
04-24-2012, 06:22 AM
Wow you need to post more! They way you articulated this is amazing and I agree with this, all of this.

The hatred and nastiness the blogger spews at them is so unwarranted, it's like she has something personal against them or something. I would feel the same if this article was directed towards any team btw.

I agree, great post, Zazy! (and Shayii, I love how friendly and encouraging you are:) ).

I am totally cool with people questioning the marks and challenging a result, but for heaven's sake, refer to the actual rules and requirements when making such strong claims about the judging of an event (and the sport overall). As I said in the discussion of Hersh's article, there are GOEs, levels, and PCS categories which, though subjective, are not entirely arbitrary. These are things we can see on protocols and make reference to when discussing results. This person never shows us how the rules were incorrectly applied or disregarded altogether, which doesn't exactly make for a compelling argument. The blogger only vaguely refers to these things, saying that the fluctuation in levels and GOEs was suspicious. Well, each event is different: sometimes skaters miss an edge, or their edges aren't as clean nor their turns as sharp as they were in the previous event, sometimes their patterns are smaller in one event, etc. And, as Zazy has pointed out, the criteria (for both TES and PCS) is being interpreted by a different set of judges each time. They will each place different amounts of emphasis on each criterion (for example, in PCS, some will favour 'multi-directional skating' over 'flow and effortless glide' in Skating Skills, some will favour 'projection' over 'clarity of movement' in Performance, etc.). And some judges will see some things that others miss. This, along with different performance levels at different events, will result in variations in PCS of one team relative to another from event to event. That does not necessarily signal corruption. And yes, we have to consider that an argument could be made that another team should have been scored higher (and I personally feel P&B and C&L should have received higher Interpretation marks than they did at the World Championships because of how they conveyed the Latin rhythms--they did exceptionally well in this regard). For any given event, it may be possible that any of a number of outcomes, for example, would be fair, depending on how the criteria are being interpreted and applied. Though we do know that at least 2 judges did not account for the stumble in the marks, the deductions for that (one mandatory in SS, one expected in LF/M which in total came out to be 1.07) do not change the result. And in this case, I think it is very difficult to argue with the call on the level, imo (I personally don't think it was a close call...you can see the little problems with Meryl's edges towards the end of the sequence), so you would have to argue that the GOEs or PCS of V&M should have been significantly lower to offset this difference and the SD lead (which I know some will say is debatable, but they have to show where V&M were overmarked with respect to D&W). Though GOEs, which were similar for the two teams, and the PCS, in which the teams were close and tied on Performance, can be subjective in many respects, imo this outcome is difficult (though not impossible) to argue for. Now, of course, one could argue that the criteria are not being correctly applied, but that does not appear to be what the blogger is doing. And things like Clarity of Movement, Unison and "oneness", carriage (Performance) and variety of holds and intricacy, variety, and difficulty in transitions and linking movement (Linking Footwork/Movement) are things we can separate from the actual interpretation of the program...so even if you think V&M are awful in terms of how they interpret music (and this blogger seems to think they are), there are other things that they would be hard-pressed to say V&M 'fail' at.

And yes, I believe politics come into play, and yes, I believe Canada has a powerful skating federation, but I have a hard time believing that the U.S. doesn't.

I disagree with his assessment of P&B as well. It is sad when bloggers can't acknowledge the talent of teams they happen not to like. It doesn't give them much credibility, and it is disrespectful to the skaters.

Sorry if I rambled on, or if my posts are very repetitive. I am just sick and tired of seeing blog entries and newpaper articles like this.

Bournekraatzfan
04-24-2012, 06:36 AM
You make excellent points re V/M and Chan. Remember years ago when it seemed the Russians were the bad guys? They won just about everything in sight and there were all the "Russian judge" joles circulating. So now Canada is on the hot seat because we're doing so well in two disciplines. I predict that this will continue until Sochi. V/M and Chan will probably retire and then Japan will be dominant and on the hotseat. I see traces of anti-Japanese sentiment starting to appear. So sad and so predictable. Why can't we just enjoy the skating?
And what about a thought for those nations who never get near the podium and yet keep coming out year after year? Wouldn't it be interesting if one year the medals were all won by places like Mexico, Australia, Austria, Turkey, etc.? Wouldn't the fur fly then!

Yes, this bothered me so much about the SLC 2002 events...some members of the Canadian and American media just decided that all Russians were responsible for corruption (perceived or real) and their skaters could only win by cheating. It is fine if they disagreed with the results, but they failed to acknowledge the incredible skating skills and intricate and difficult programs of the Russian skaters. It drove me nuts, and seemed to incite ill feelings towards Russians/Russian-Canadians/Russian-Americans. And yes, I am noticing the anti-Japanese sentiment. It is very sad.

Also, I just wanted to clarify something in my post about the fan wars. I didn't mean to imply that it is all one-sided; it just seems that there is a perception that only V&M fans engage in this kind of disrespectful behaviour when both sides are guilty (though it is only the minority of fans in each group, I believe). I think I just have to try my best not to take the bait of these few posters, though they do upset me.

Also, and on a happier note, enjoy the show+meet and greet, Scrufflet:)

pani
04-24-2012, 07:23 AM
btw, I am going to CSOI in Toronto! I didn't think I would be able to go. I am so excited! I will fill you all in after the show!

Have a great time! :)

Bournekraatzfan
04-24-2012, 07:24 AM
Have a great time! :)

Thank you! :)

pani
04-24-2012, 07:30 AM
You make excellent points re V/M and Chan. Remember years ago when it seemed the Russians were the bad guys? They won just about everything in sight and there were all the "Russian judge" joles circulating. So now Canada is on the hot seat because we're doing so well in two disciplines. I predict that this will continue until Sochi. V/M and Chan will probably retire and then Japan will be dominant and on the hotseat. I see traces of anti-Japanese sentiment starting to appear. So sad and so predictable. Why can't we just enjoy the skating?
And what about a thought for those nations who never get near the podium and yet keep coming out year after year? Wouldn't it be interesting if one year the medals were all won by places like Mexico, Australia, Austria, Turkey, etc.? Wouldn't the fur fly then!

Wish to post the same.
This hating look, like Russian skaters hating, when they won all gold medals. :D
Honestly I am sure W-P will be hating, when they will won at least silver medal. Now people talking they love there Fd, but if they were over D-W - they will be worst skaters in the World :D
Its amazing, that when D-W get 76 in SD at 4CC and 9,96 in two COS at WTT - it was good judging without politiking. But when they lose - it was politiks.
I discussed this situation with my friends and i think its all because judges showed to D-W, they could only be at first place and even D-W and there coaches belive in this- they couldnt now be second, no :D
Thank for feel free to post what you really thinking about this blog ;)

And i like Yankee polka on jig music - go with original rythm better, then first clip.

Shayii
04-24-2012, 07:42 AM
Aww thanks Bournekraatzffan! We have great discussions here, I enjoy reading everybody's take on things. I'm gonna try and forget about this blogger, her insults aren't worth my time and energy.

Anyways out of all the polka music I've listened to so far (I've only listened to three actually lol) my favorite is still the Titanic one.

pani
04-24-2012, 07:50 AM
I think its hard to find, wich will be more audience friendly, then this :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Bb2j7dQkQ

And i am really respect canadian FS fans. After all this negative posts they still love skaters from another countries and even wish to see USA and Japan skaters in CSOI - you are something special, guys!
And i am sure real FS fans love skating, but not countries.

figuristka
04-24-2012, 08:05 AM
pani, that would suit them well. They are such a classic, and romantic couple.

I remember it being said once that the only problem with Gordeeva and Grinkov was they made skating look too easy. I think this is so with Tessa and Scott as well as Patrick Chan. Its of such high quality it looks easy and the audience can think its easier than it is.

Bournekraatzfan
04-24-2012, 08:54 AM
I think its hard to find, wich will be more audience friendly, then this :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Bb2j7dQkQ

And i am really respect canadian FS fans. After all this negative posts they still love skaters from another countries and even wish to see USA and Japan skaters in CSOI - you are something special, guys!
And i am sure real FS fans love skating, but not countries.

Thanks, pani. This is one of my mother's favourites, and V&M are her favourites, so this will be a match made in heaven for her if they select this piece.

you are very kind toward Canadian FS fans. just wanted to add that I think there are fans from all over the world here who are really cool. and yes, you are right, it is about great skating above all:)

and I agree, Shayii, we do have some great discussions here, and I enjoy hearing so many different opinions. It makes me look at and understand the skating in new ways.

spikydurian
04-24-2012, 01:04 PM
also, thanks everyone! I will report back to you on the show whenever I get the chance, though I will warn you that I will likely be speechless for a number of days:)

Enjoy Bournekraatzfan. Do report back. Waiting for your 'speechless stories'. :)