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FSWer
04-07-2012, 02:04 AM
Hey, I thought we could do an update on this, since we haven't done one in a while. I would like to know who here (new Members included) is a Pairs Fan, and who here is an Ice-Dance Fan,and who is Both a Pairs AND Ice-Dance Fan.? If you YOURSELF are a Pairs Skater, OR an Ice-Dancer, plese include which one you yourself are. Please check all that apply to you.

Ok my Friends...GO!!!

blue_idealist
04-07-2012, 02:07 AM
Both a pairs and ice dance fan, but never a pairs skater or ice dancer myself.

Btw, do you have any favourite couples?

martyross
04-07-2012, 02:10 AM
i just did the check and no im not an ice dancer, but i am a big fan of the discipline:D

FSWer
04-07-2012, 02:23 AM
Both a pairs and ice dance fan, but never a pairs skater or ice dancer myself.

Btw, do you have any favourite couples?

I sure do!!!! Lynn and Logan!!!

maggylyn
04-07-2012, 04:14 AM
I'm a fan of both, but have never personally done either.

I have too many favorites. Probably my all-time favorite pairs' team is Gordeeva/Grinkov.

The Accordion
04-07-2012, 06:48 AM
I like Pairs skating and I LOVE dance!

I do LOVE Pairs when it is a team I am really moved by -such as Shen and Zhao
My new faves are Volosozhar and Trankov!

I have never skated pairs but I do some ice dancing. I am working on my Paso and Kilean (but I don't get to skate much so I have been working on them for a while!)

love_skate2011
04-07-2012, 07:48 AM
Pairs if for me the most beautiful and my favorite of any of the disciplines

It is the most difficult as you have to invest in two people
the timing, lifts, sbs, lines and turns need to be precise
No wonder you are lucky enough to have a
pair partnership for more than 10 years..

Ice Dance for me is the easiest and requires the less effort of all the disciplines

eurodance2001
04-07-2012, 08:03 AM
Not a skater at all but enjoy both and the sense of freedom that each discipline conveys to me..

briancoogaert
04-07-2012, 08:50 AM
Ice Dance for me is the easiest and requires the less effort of all the disciplines
OMG.
I'm an ice dancer, and be sure it's as much difficult as any other discipline, if done well. This is a very demanding sport because you need to be perfect. Few artistic skaters (if none) are able to skate the Rhumba the way Pechalat&Bourzat or Virtue&Moir do it.

Proustable
04-07-2012, 01:00 PM
I'm a fan of ice dance

I have a great deal of admiration for the pairs, but COP has impact it the most. That, and I find the falls/accidents terrifying. Canadian Nationals 2010 showed D/D's unfortunate 4CC accident way too much.

apatinar
04-07-2012, 01:29 PM
I am a pairs skating fan... I do not understand ice dance , how it is judged as a sport and probably never will.. I only took some dance tests to help with flow on the ice.

love_skate2011
04-07-2012, 01:33 PM
I am a pairs skating fan... I do not understand ice dance , how it is judged as a sport and probably never will.. I only took some dance tests to help with flow on the ice.

:confused: me neither, I think its judged mostly on PCS
with marks for twizzles, skating positions and stepseq

Ice Dance is the most predictable of all the disciplines
while Pairs is the most difficult of all the disciplines, imo

rhumba
04-07-2012, 03:29 PM
I sure do!!!! Lynn and Logan!!!

Me too :D! also the Italians C/L , the German pairs S/S :rockstar:, the Russian pairs V/T

apatinar
04-07-2012, 08:45 PM
I don't know... if ice dance is an Olympic sport, then there should be absolutely no problem for ballroom dancing to be added to the Summer Olympics.. it's pretty much the same thing, no?

NorthernDancers
04-07-2012, 08:52 PM
:confused: me neither, I think its judged mostly on PCS
with marks for twizzles, skating positions and stepseq

Ice Dance is the most predictable of all the disciplines
while Pairs is the most difficult of all the disciplines, imo

Nope.

TES in Dance is determined as follows

- 1 or 2 compulsory dance sequences in the SD only that everyone in the competition must do (comparing apples with apples) - levels are determined by whether or not the steps are done on the correct edges with the right turns at the right spots on the ice; GOE is determined how well it is done, how deep the pattern is, how clear the edges are done, etc. For those who think it is so easy, only a few (and not even the Canton teams) were able to score level 4's on the rhumbas.

- lifts - there is only 1 in the SD, but a number of them in the FD, which must be different; levels are determined by how difficult the lifts are (entry and exits, number of rotations in a rotational lift, his and/or her positions in the lift, etc.), and in combo lifts whether or not the lift makes use of the full range of height; GOE is determined by how well the lift is done, how smooth it's done, etc. For those who think dance lifts are easy, consider that dance lifts are very intricate, with both partners intertwined, often in difficult positions, that if one person bobbles or catches an edge the wrong way, the ability to self-correct or "save" a lift is pretty near impossible. Risk of injury is very high.

- twizzles - these are not to be 3-turns, but twizzles; to get the levels, there has to be at least 2 sets in opposite directions, must be synchronized (he and she must both grab the foot at the same time in order to count the full number of rotations), must have minimum number of rotations, must have some difficult positions like a foot grab and/or hands above the head, etc, and must have a difficult entry into the twizzles (like a jump to start) or a 3rd set of twizzles; the Canton teams are the best in the world at twizzles. The GOE determines how well these were done, how fast, how in sync, how much ice coverage, etc. For those who think that's easy, just give it a try. There's a reason why even senior teams still struggle with twizzles.

- step sequence - this year in the SD it was a non-touching circular step. There are a couple of the step sequences in the FD, usually different ones. To get the levels, there must be required number of turns, the more difficult the better, and edges and highlights all synchronized; this is exceptionally hard to get the levels, since a flat edge at the wrong spot or poorly done highlight can knock levels down quickly, even if only 1 person made the error; GOE measure how well the step sequence is done - how deep the edges are, how the lines match, when steps are done in holds, how close the partners are together and if they are skating as one (ie. in side by side steps, are they "glued" together at the hips with legs and toes moving at the same time at the same angles; when facing each other, are they close together moving as one person). For those who think this is simple, there are very few teams in the world who ever consistently get level 4's on steps.

- dance spin - this is in the FD only; to get the levels, there must be a variety of positions and directions, the right number of rotations in each part of the spin, and so on; GOE determine how well the spin was done - with speed, accuracy, traveling or stuck, highlights worked well, etc. Of all the elements, I would say this is most like pair skating, and there is no difference in difficulty from pairs to dance.



The PCS mark is really about the program and skating as a whole. Doris has given a fabulous breakdown of the rules and levels, but here's a quick run down:

- Skating Skills: all about the depth of edges, the quality and smoothness of the skating, the flow, the unison, the lines, the ability to skate closely together, speed, power, etc. V/M score really high because they are just so superior on these things. D/W have such power and speed, which gives them high scores here as well. I would say a dancers' skating skills are just as high or higher than a pairs team.

- Linking footwork: how many cross-cuts were there instead of some difficult footwork in between the elements? Is the speed from stroking or from the edges themselves? Is there balance between what each partner is doing? Is there a connection in and out of the elements so the program looks like one idea? Is there variety? I have to mention the BC teams here because it is the most obvious example, whose favourite movement this year seemed to be the girl twizzling in and out of so many elements. Absolutely dancers do this better than pairs, and it is a lot more to think about in a program.

- Performance: how well was the music and program expressed through the skating? Was it performed, or a series of elements with some steps in the middle? Was there expression and understanding of the music and program? Both partners are invested in the performance? Both pairs and dance teams are pretty even on this in terms of difficulty. Some of the top pairs teams are very good performers (S/S, V/T, for example), but I think there are more dancers that understand the performance aspects.

- Choreography: how well was the program put together? Were all the difficult elements up front and the easy stuff at the end? Was it interesting and novel? Does the program use the whole ice? Are there unique and interesting elements? Is there difficulty in the program? Like the Performance mark, I think there are great examples on the pairs side (S/S who always have something unique, and V/T, S/Z in their later years...), but more dancers understand how to use choreography. The Detroit clubs each have their own style and do this beautifully (V/M, D/W, W/P, etc.)

- Interpretation/Timing: do the skaters move in time to the music, are the elements in time with the music, do they interpret the music or are they "just there", is there nuance, a great relationship between the 2 partners, and so on? Is it effortless or does it look like hard work? The very best in the world this year in this factor was V/M in dance. The lines, the toe points, the hands, the use of "s'wonderful", the looks between them, the ease and floating quality of their skating, etc. There is so much more complexity in the interpretation of a dance program than a pairs program.


So is dance so much easier than pairs? I would say resoundingly no. They are just different. One focuses on power and strength, and the other is about complexity with grace. I know both dancers and pairs teams. The pairs boys have big muscles to lift and throw the girls. The dance boys have a different kind of muscle strength because they need to have much more flexibility with their strength. Especially dance boys need strong core muscles, which means washboard stomachs. Dance girls require more flexibility and grace, and both pairs and dance girls need rock hard stomachs and core muscles. If I were a girl skater, I'd much rather be lifted by a dancer boy, since they seem much more solid on their feet. It would be interesting to put a step counter on a pair program vs a dance program. My guess is that there are many more steps and complexity with speed in a dance program. Both dancers and pairs need great cardio conditioning to get through the programs.