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Japanfan
04-04-2012, 10:09 AM
Your definition of interpretation does not seem to align with that of the ISU (http://www2.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152077-169293-64120-0-file,00.pdf):

Effortless movement in time to the music (timing)
Expression of the musicís style, character and rhythm
Use of finesse to reflect the nuances of the music

Perhaps you can explain how a skater who is behind the music can possibly be doing any of those things?


Patrick wasn't behind the music for the whole program, just at the very end. And the judges may have in fact given him a lower score for IN than they would have without the timing issue. Given how high he generally scores for IN and how well he meets the criteria, it would not represent a serious reduction in marks.


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Zemgirl
04-04-2012, 11:23 AM
Patrick wasn't behind the music for the whole program, just at the very end. And the judges may have in fact given him a lower score for IN than they would have without the timing issue. Given how high he generally scores for IN and how well he meets the criteria, it would not represent a serious reduction in marks.
I was responding to a poster who suggested that IN is not just about being in tune with the music. I think the ISU criteria shows that IN is exactly about that, and if a skater is behind the music, even for part of the program, than the IN score should be impacted in a noticeable way.

I tend to disagree with Chan's IN scores in general, but that's irrelevant to my previous post, which was specifically about what the IN component measures. It's also irrelevant to this thread, so I'd prefer not to continue with this subject.

Aussie Willy
04-04-2012, 12:10 PM
Patrick wasn't behind the music for the whole program, just at the very end. And the judges may have in fact given him a lower score for IN than they would have without the timing issue. Given how high he generally scores for IN and how well he meets the criteria, it would not represent a serious reduction in marks.

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I just rewatched the program and took note of the end of the program. Something that concerns me with skaters is when they take their music to absolute time limit. I would much rather they give themselves a couple of seconds that if they do run over then they won't incur the time deduction.

I don't think the fall on the axel impacted on the IN. I wouldn't have even known that he was playing catch up or wasn't with the music until the very end when he finished afterwards.

spikydurian
04-04-2012, 12:39 PM
heaven.
It would be awesome to watch... so Epsiode 1 - The Phantom Menace has already began. Will we start to experience the Attack of the Patrick clones? Or will we be seeing the Revenge of the Seethe [aka skating forum eyeballs]? Personally I am leaning on A New Hope in Hanyu who will hopefully lead the Empire Strike Back until finally we have Return of the Jedi to defend the figure skating universe again, maybe Plushy or Evan or Lambiel? :lol: You must be a Star Wars fan. I have one at home.
Seriously, Dai is a brilliant skater and is already up there among the handful few. I love his skating. It just so happen that there are a handful of wonderful skaters now and the coming years. If he can add a couple of quads, he will add more points to his skates.

spikydurian
04-04-2012, 01:03 PM
Rock2 - that is an excellent analysis.

I was actually thinking about downloading the clips of both Dai and Chan and then doing a written analysis over the top of the program, to show where they are hitting the marks with the music or doing set ups.

It is not only important to do these kinds of things for helping spectators understand how a program is judged, but can also be used as a judging training tool.

Oh yes, can you please Aussie Willy? I am a non-skater and I find this type of analysis useful in helping me to understand the sport. I always love knowledgeable comments in sports. :cheer:

mikeko
04-04-2012, 01:14 PM
Jump discussion aside, Takahashi really needs to improve his spins.

Check the protocol before you post.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/WC2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Spins in LP:

Chan:
FCCoSp1 2.00 0.79
CSSp4 3.00 1.00
CCoSp4 3.50 1.07

Takahashi:
CCSp4 3.20 0.50
FCCoSp4 3.50 0.71
CCoSp4 3.50 1.00

Andrey aka Pushkin
04-04-2012, 03:09 PM
Takahashi has it all! He needs just more luuuuuurve from us, putting more banners for him than for Chan!

And a haircut.

os168
04-04-2012, 04:54 PM
Takahashi has it all! He needs just more luuuuuurve from us, putting more banners for him than for Chan!

And a haircut.

NOOOOoooooo he certainly does not!

Hair cut I mean... it is purrrrrrfect thank you very much!
Don't mess with the Hair! He ain't the Elvis of Figure skating for nothing!!

Patrick Chan on the other hand can stick with his old altar boy hair cut in the church of COP, don't really care.

Marco
04-04-2012, 05:15 PM
Check the protocol before you post.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/WC2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Spins in LP:

Chan:
FCCoSp1 2.00 0.79
CSSp4 3.00 1.00
CCoSp4 3.50 1.07

Takahashi:
CCSp4 3.20 0.50
FCCoSp4 3.50 0.71
CCoSp4 3.50 1.00

So Chan messed up the levels on his flying spin. Other than that, you will see that Chan gets higher GOEs on each corresponding spin than Takahashi.

lauravvv
04-04-2012, 07:30 PM
Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan.Great post, indeed :) :respec: (why there's no simple thumbs up smiley?).

I too am one of those who love Dai much more than Patrick. and I've always almost taken it for granted that Dai also interprets the music better than Chan. I had my doubts with his LP this season, although the wonderful Latvian commentator thought that he interpreted his music better than Patrick this time as well. And now you've helped me to understand why (that is, why I had those doubts). Thank you for that, Rock2, really.

skaterdelight
04-04-2012, 09:04 PM
ALL I WANT IS FOR DAI TO KEEP SKATING SO I CAN KEEP ON SEEING HIS WONDERFUL ARTISTRY AND INTERESTING PROGRAMS AND SOUL!!! Hopefully, along the way he'll continue to get medals - gold or otherwise and gets satisfaction from his efforts. It takes courage to come back from injuries and compete inspite of them. The PCS scoring is sh______t as far as I'm concerned.

I can enjoy Chan and appreciate what he's got to offer but one program is like another to me. Let's see if he can continue to do 2 quads next season and the next season or if he comes down with injuries which so many other competitors have done and see what his scores will be like then. This year his skating skills have shown weaknesses with bobbles, slips and falls in every competition and his program lacks any emotional commitment, yet the judges have still overscored his skating skills in PCS. What will happen if he doesn't have those quads all the time.

As a skating fan though, I'm always glad to watch great competitors, whether they are jumpers, artists or just fierce competitors. Having a whole bunch of any of those in a competition is like being in a candy store with all my favorite candies.

skaterdelight
04-04-2012, 09:13 PM
Double post.

jettasian
04-04-2012, 09:35 PM
NOOOOoooooo he certainly does not!

Hair cut I mean... it is purrrrrrfect thank you very much!
Don't mess with the Hair! He ain't the Elvis of Figure skating for nothing!!

Patrick Chan on the other hand can stick with his old altar boy hair cut in the church of COP, don't really care.

Your love for Dai's great. No need to insult Chan and his look. :rolleyes:

jettasian
04-04-2012, 09:40 PM
I can enjoy Chan and appreciate what he's got to offer but one program is like another to me. Let's see if he can continue to do 2 quads next season and the next season or if he comes down with injuries which so many other competitors have done and see what his scores will be like then. This year his skating skills have shown weaknesses with bobbles, slips and falls in every competition and his program lacks any emotional commitment, yet the judges have still overscored his skating skills in PCS. What will happen if he doesn't have those quads all the time.


Besides his quads, he has great skating skill, great body line, great artistry, great speed, great transitions, great spins, great footworks, great interpretation of music, great edges and smooth and effortless overall of his skate.

Doubletoe
04-04-2012, 10:49 PM
So Chan messed up the levels on his flying spin. Other than that, you will see that Chan gets higher GOEs on each corresponding spin than Takahashi.

Takahashi beats Chan on spins because he does spins with a higher base value and gets +GOE on top of that, for a higher total spin score. If Chan can do higher valued spins and get the same GOE, then he should. Takahashi and Kozuka are both brilliant at selecting spins that have the highest base values, then getting level 4's and +GOE on them.


Entire post
^ Much appreciated, Rock2! I am a huge Takahashi fan, but Patrick's skating has some qualities that a well-trained eye will really value and that are hard for any other skater to match. The only thing I disagree on is Takahashi's "head bops". It's really hard to stay upright and balanced while moving your head like that, so I give HUGE props to any skater who can do it!