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Rock2
04-04-2012, 12:35 AM
Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan

Here's a link to Dai in Nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI
Usova/Zhulin 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxseLaxl61s
Chan in Nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4


I love Dai; he's charismatic and invests himself emotionally. But you have to pull that out of the analysis because those intangibles only count for so much in the PE IN and CH marks. So many other things matter.

His two main shortfalls are (compared to Chan)
1. The number of opportunities missed to interpret the music in a meaningful way and
2. The lack of variety in his movement and ways to interpret the music.

As for #1, there are places in the program where he doesn't really acknowledge the music.

The first main part is through first 3 elements (0-1:20)
-other than first 15 sec of program not many body movements connected to the music. Three turns after quad count for transitions but don't connect to music. Almost none of the notes acknowledged although some good transitional moves

Musical transition (2:53 - 4:00)
-Intensity picks up in the music with more furtive string instrument work. Dai's energy does not similarly amp up and there is very little movement that connects to the music. He does move his arms around but not in relation to the music. This is the best example here of missed opportunities to highlight the music. Arm movements, simpler connecting footwork and head bops. All very good but not worthy of 9s

Compare that section specifically...2:53 to about 3:10 to Usova/Zhulin 6:10 to 6:40. Same cut of music. U/Z hit the notes and varied their body movement. More importantly their energy and speed surged with the music whereas Dai kept to one level of energy and kept the choreo to simple arm movements. Doesn't compare. Note that just before this section he stripped out a number of transitional moves he had earlier in the year at the J.O.

As for #2, watching the program again with a more critical eye, I've now become even more aware of the lack of variety in his movement compared to Patrick. I now find that Dai's program is again simple arm movements and simpler footwork movements and sporadic edge work. And, outside of footwork everything he does is completely upright. Comparatively easy.

With Patrick I see something different. Already in the first 20 seconds he uses almost every edge and rocks on them to the music. His body goes from high to low which you never see from Dai. Impacts choreo and IN part depending on how judges see it.
-Also unlike Dai Patrick is up and down in his knees to the music even going into his hard early jumps, something Dai never does.
-3A lands on a musical transition. Harder to do and gets more credit.

Patrick has a much more well developed vocabulary in edges and turns. He highlights almost all of the notes and with an incredible variety of movement that incorporates his entire body. Lots of hops, directional changes and varied arm movements that are sharp or fluid all relative to what the music dictates.

I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.

Aussie Willy
04-04-2012, 01:21 AM
Rock2 - that is an excellent analysis.

I was actually thinking about downloading the clips of both Dai and Chan and then doing a written analysis over the top of the program, to show where they are hitting the marks with the music or doing set ups.

It is not only important to do these kinds of things for helping spectators understand how a program is judged, but can also be used as a judging training tool.

Like I have said it is about percentages which is how you are meant to look at the components. What percentage of the program did they actually interpret? When it comes down to it I think the judges at the event probably did their jobs because they looked at the percentages.

Ziggy
04-04-2012, 01:23 AM
Jump discussion aside, Takahashi really needs to improve his spins.

kwanette
04-04-2012, 01:28 AM
Is there room for one more. ;)

For you, of course.

clarie
04-04-2012, 01:44 AM
Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan

Here's a link to Dai in Nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI
Usova/Zhulin 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxseLaxl61s
Chan in Nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4


I love Dai; he's charismatic and invests himself emotionally. But you have to pull that out of the analysis because those intangibles only count for so much in the PE IN and CH marks. So many other things matter.

His two main shortfalls are (compared to Chan)
1. The number of opportunities missed to interpret the music in a meaningful way and
2. The lack of variety in his movement and ways to interpret the music.

As for #1, there are places in the program where he doesn't really acknowledge the music.

The first main part is through first 3 elements (0-1:20)
-other than first 15 sec of program not many body movements connected to the music. Three turns after quad count for transitions but don't connect to music. Almost none of the notes acknowledged although some good transitional moves

Musical transition (2:53 - 4:00)
-Intensity picks up in the music with more furtive string instrument work. Dai's energy does not similarly amp up and there is very little movement that connects to the music. He does move his arms around but not in relation to the music. This is the best example here of missed opportunities to highlight the music. Arm movements, simpler connecting footwork and head bops. All very good but not worthy of 9s

Compare that section specifically...2:53 to about 3:10 to Usova/Zhulin 6:10 to 6:40. Same cut of music. U/Z hit the notes and varied their body movement. More importantly their energy and speed surged with the music whereas Dai kept to one level of energy and kept the choreo to simple arm movements. Doesn't compare. Note that just before this section he stripped out a number of transitional moves he had earlier in the year at the J.O.

As for #2, watching the program again with a more critical eye, I've now become even more aware of the lack of variety in his movement compared to Patrick. I now find that Dai's program is again simple arm movements and simpler footwork movements and sporadic edge work. And, outside of footwork everything he does is completely upright. Comparatively easy.

With Patrick I see something different. Already in the first 20 seconds he uses almost every edge and rocks on them to the music. His body goes from high to low which you never see from Dai. Impacts choreo and IN part depending on how judges see it.
-Also unlike Dai Patrick is up and down in his knees to the music even going into his hard early jumps, something Dai never does.
-3A lands on a musical transition. Harder to do and gets more credit.

Patrick has a much more well developed vocabulary in edges and turns. He highlights almost all of the notes and with an incredible variety of movement that incorporates his entire body. Lots of hops, directional changes and varied arm movements that are sharp or fluid all relative to what the music dictates.

I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.

I remember observing this at Skate Canada this year only I didn't know how to express it in such detail....cudos to you for this post. Patrick uses his whole body to express the music.

Emdee
04-04-2012, 02:34 AM
Dai is a magnificent show skater and would have done fine in 6.0 but I dont think he would have beaten Patrick in 6.0 years either.

Patrick's skating just blows you away. Even his ex program which is simpler and less chock full of goodies than his COP programs catch every nuance of the music.

No doubt though that Dai is a pleasure to watch but will he be able to catch Patrick's edge work which has been honed over years of hard work under Mr Colson ... I doubt very much.

Rock 2 really enjoyed and agreed with your analysis. Seeing the programs side by side tells the tale better than any statement.

Yazmeen
04-04-2012, 02:50 AM
It is really nice to see someone set emotion and fandom aside and do an analysis like that. Thank you, Rock, we should see this more often.:cool:

walei
04-04-2012, 03:38 AM
Whole post

THANK YOU so much for the analysis Rock2, I'd rep you so hard if I could!

It's great to see tangible analysis on why Chan is above and beyond other skaters unlike some naysayer's repeat comments on him being robotic or soulless.

Of course there will still be people that will also say if you need such a long explanation on why one is better than the other then figure skating will lose the popularity. This is too bad because Figure Skating is still a sport and like all other sports it needs to expand and grow by achieving human mastery. It's not just about the jumps, under CoP I feel on average skating skills and program composition barring the ugly catchfoots, are much demanding than in the 6.0s days. As a fan it is also more interesting to watch.

jettasian
04-04-2012, 04:39 AM
Excuse me while I vomit.

Hope you get better.

Jenna
04-04-2012, 04:41 AM
Jump discussion aside, Takahashi really needs to improve his spins.

I would agree here. Dai's spins are competent (they get the levels) but I would score most of them at a 0 GOE. If he could get better GOE on the spins it would definitely help his TES.

jettasian
04-04-2012, 04:53 AM
The thing is figure skating is still old school and judges still want to see same old same old programs done to death by skaters. If skater try to push the boundary, they are no properly rewarded as they should. Only real weakness Dai has is not having consistent quad. But given his past injury and his age, you got give him a break.

Well, Chan's programs are certainly not same old same old. And he IS PUSHING not only himself, but all other skaters.

jettasian
04-04-2012, 04:57 AM
How is that even possible? Do you want the ISU to add a level 5 for step sequences? :rolleyes:

You're extreme even for an uber, so I won't dignify the rest of it with a response. Past a certain point any attempt at a discussion becomes ridiculous.

I am just stating what I think, same as others who think Dai should just wear a Chan mask or change his name or other nonsense.

jettasian
04-04-2012, 05:05 AM
Only a clean Takahashi with the same technical content as Chan can beat Chan, who typically makes a mistake or two.

Not necessary true. Chan made more mistakes early on in the season, but not late of the season. He was perfect at National on both SP and LP. He had one mistake at 4CC. I think his fall on the 2A at World was an odd case. It's not like he jumped and fell on the landing. It's more like his blade caught something before taking off. Dai made MORE mistakes than him at his National and 4CC.

jettasian
04-04-2012, 05:12 AM
Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan

Here's a link to Dai in Nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI
Usova/Zhulin 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxseLaxl61s
Chan in Nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4


I love Dai; he's charismatic and invests himself emotionally. But you have to pull that out of the analysis because those intangibles only count for so much in the PE IN and CH marks. So many other things matter.

His two main shortfalls are (compared to Chan)
1. The number of opportunities missed to interpret the music in a meaningful way and
2. The lack of variety in his movement and ways to interpret the music.

As for #1, there are places in the program where he doesn't really acknowledge the music.

The first main part is through first 3 elements (0-1:20)
-other than first 15 sec of program not many body movements connected to the music. Three turns after quad count for transitions but don't connect to music. Almost none of the notes acknowledged although some good transitional moves

Musical transition (2:53 - 4:00)
-Intensity picks up in the music with more furtive string instrument work. Dai's energy does not similarly amp up and there is very little movement that connects to the music. He does move his arms around but not in relation to the music. This is the best example here of missed opportunities to highlight the music. Arm movements, simpler connecting footwork and head bops. All very good but not worthy of 9s

Compare that section specifically...2:53 to about 3:10 to Usova/Zhulin 6:10 to 6:40. Same cut of music. U/Z hit the notes and varied their body movement. More importantly their energy and speed surged with the music whereas Dai kept to one level of energy and kept the choreo to simple arm movements. Doesn't compare. Note that just before this section he stripped out a number of transitional moves he had earlier in the year at the J.O.

As for #2, watching the program again with a more critical eye, I've now become even more aware of the lack of variety in his movement compared to Patrick. I now find that Dai's program is again simple arm movements and simpler footwork movements and sporadic edge work. And, outside of footwork everything he does is completely upright. Comparatively easy.

With Patrick I see something different. Already in the first 20 seconds he uses almost every edge and rocks on them to the music. His body goes from high to low which you never see from Dai. Impacts choreo and IN part depending on how judges see it.
-Also unlike Dai Patrick is up and down in his knees to the music even going into his hard early jumps, something Dai never does.
-3A lands on a musical transition. Harder to do and gets more credit.

Patrick has a much more well developed vocabulary in edges and turns. He highlights almost all of the notes and with an incredible variety of movement that incorporates his entire body. Lots of hops, directional changes and varied arm movements that are sharp or fluid all relative to what the music dictates.

I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.

Bravo!!!

But Dai fans will refuse to see it because they are too busy vomiting after reading my earlier post :lol:

Japanfan
04-04-2012, 10:02 AM
I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.

Interesting analysis, Rock 2. Thank you.

I too would like to hear what others see that I'm missing. Could someone who think's Dai wuzrobbed give an equally detailed explanation as to why?