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nlyoung
04-12-2012, 02:31 AM
Hmmm speaking as a judge music is actually something I feel very strongly about. It think it helps to have actually learnt music and been a musician. Because then you not only understand timing (although that is pretty instinctive) but look at phrasing, nuances and all the other things you want to see the skater create pictures for you.

You would be included among those judges who are qualified to judge the nuances. It would be great if all were like you. :)

We have to remember that not all judges come from countries with strong federations and a pool of qualified applicants to choose from. Obviously many judges of smaller federations would be equally qualified, but not all would have had the same developmental opportunities yet they are given equal weight on a judging panel.

DELTA
04-12-2012, 02:49 AM
Chan won by 6.45 points overall - what argument can be made to reduce his PCS/increase Takahashi's PCS by a total of 6.46? Not enough of one I don't think.



The point is we should leave the way things are. Scoring needs to change, not to help Chan lose. But for others just to have a fair chance at winning.

jettasian
04-12-2012, 03:32 AM
I think Dai uses his upper body quite a bit more in ways that are unique to a given piece of music. Chan is more stiff in his upper body, and demonstrated less versatility this past season.

Chan's upper body was not stiff. His is more ballet like. Meanwhile, Dai's just moving all over the place, that's a mess.


Just looking at the long programs for Chan and Dai, Dai's program was much more choreographed to reflect the mood, tenor, and style of the music. Chan's program could much more easily be transposed onto another piece of music. That's where the interpretation mark comes in--how well did the skater interpret this very particular piece of music? On that, I think Dai did a far better job. And that, of course, gets into choreography as well as performance and execution.

Chan's CH is well balance, and every note is CH.

jettasian
04-12-2012, 03:38 AM
ISU changed the application of their rule for fall for Chan at 4CC and was criticized for that, and had to stick with the change at the Worlds. I'm afraid that we'll see more like that until Sochi.

But did Dai get the outpour complaint like Chan did? Nope. Those people who complained about Chan didn't get a fall call turned a blind eye when it happened to their favorite. Hypocrite much?

jettasian
04-12-2012, 03:44 AM
PCS through the years (free program worlds and Olympics):

Chan Takahashi

2008 67.62 76.75
2009 76.10 Did not compete
2010 O's 82.00 84.50
2010 W's 82.40 86.50
2011 91.52 82.08
2012 90.14 85.78

Note that the PCS score for Takahashi that seems to be upsetting people is the second highest he has ever received, and not much lower than when he won worlds.

Chan won by 6.45 points overall - what argument can be made to reduce his PCS/increase Takahashi's PCS by a total of 6.46? Not enough of one I don't think.

In TES they had the following issues
Chan
SP - 4T slight stepout - GOE: - 0.86 compared to SP - 4T-3T UR (<<)& bad landing GOE: - 2.86

Chan bobble in footwork - reduced to level 3 and GOE of 0.57 = 4.0 compared to Takahashi SlSt4 = 5.6

LP - FCCoSp1 - level 1 GOE: 0.79 = 2.79 compared to Takahashi FCCoSp4 = 4.21

Chan 3Lz+1Lo<+2S GOE = -1.4 total = 7.07 compared to Dai: 3Lz+2T+2Lo = 10.41

Chan - waxel 0.0 and -1.0 deduction (lost about 5.5 points here) Takahashi did a second TA: - 10.36

Takahashi also had two other jumps with -ve GOE

It seems that Chan got penalized for his mistakes according to the rules so I don't think there is any points to help make up that 6.46 difference here.

Yup. Chan got penalized for his mistakes. And I think that waxel has costed him the potential of 8-10 points. He missed a 3rd combo, so he could have done a 2A+3something.

Some people were upset because as I said before, they couldn't accept that other skaters could beat Dai in PCS. They only saw the ulmighty god of Dai's PCS, no one else. When the judges disagreed and awarded the PCS to someone like Chan, it's pretty much a sin in their eyes :rolleyes:

jettasian
04-12-2012, 03:48 AM
The point is we should leave the way things are. Scoring needs to change, not to help Chan lose. But for others just to have a fair chance at winning.

:lol: you are contradicting yourself. The system should change. Why? Because Chan's winning too much? So the system should change so others could win? Isn't that the same as changing the system so to make sure Chan can't win? :lol:

And what should the changes be? Even with some changes, the disadvantage may not fall to Chan but other skaters, so be careful what you wish for.

os168
04-12-2012, 05:59 AM
Hmmm speaking as a judge music is actually something I feel very strongly about. It think it helps to have actually learnt music and been a musician. Because then you not only understand timing (although that is pretty instinctive) but look at phrasing, nuances and all the other things you want to see the skater create pictures for you.

Hi Aussie Willy, Just curious what sort of exams or training are judges expect to pass or to receive that qualifies them to 'judge' at world class level performance, choreography and musical interpretations to account for 60% of PCS? For example, are they able to give credible literal appraisals about each performance and capable of identify with small degree of musicality difference between the 10 skaters performing to the same music and rank them in order?

Musicality and Interpretation are critical aspect of the performance many have mentioned already. It is the essence that blend all 5 components together; the heart beat of the fully realised program as oppose to just delivering them proficiently with no mistakes. Without musicality, a performance has no purpose, no direction, no heart, no emotion, no objective except to rack up points. It won't able to gain new audience and are barely adequate for spectators unless you happen to be a hardcore fan of the skater.

It seems the winning COP optimised program these days by Nichols and Morozov (which I will politely call 'COP smart') are no longer even about challenging a higher artistic and sporting realisation but about appealing to an intermediate level of universal 'taste' no different than Joe Public down the road who likes to listen to Classical FM but have never played an instrument, never danced, can't carry a tune, don't care who wrote the music, the meaning behind the phrasing, but enjoy something 'pleasant' that won't be too much work. The winning choreography became an exercise of colouring by numbers, design by consensus, do enough at a leisured pace based on tried and tested safe benchmark of skater's proven capability just to rack up points.

When skaters who tries to do a bit more avant garde, they are nearly always at a disadvantage. Which is unfortunate, when these are the very thing that can grow the sport. Instead we continue to find controversial call unable to separate the good and the bad, and kept seeing the same performance time and time again playing to more or less similar music just packaged differently. I do wish those who takes greater risks, attempt a higher realisation and continues to challenged themselves should deserve to be recognised and get properly rewarded rather than marked according to their impression ranking based on previous performances and not what they did on the day.

The above is only achievable through higher quality judging with courage, and given the delicate and highly skilled task that separate the pros to the amateurs, it should be a specialisation all on its own similar to technical callers who are not anonymous and are accountable for all their bad calls.

Aussie Willy
04-12-2012, 06:28 AM
Hi Aussie Willy, Just curious what sort of exams or training are judges expect to pass or to receive that qualifies them to 'judge' at world class level performance, choreography and musical interpretations to account for 60% of PCS? For example, are they able to give credible literal appraisals about each performance and capable of identify with small degree of musicality difference between the 10 skaters performing to the same music and rank them in order?

To be perfectly honest I have no idea about the process of how you become an international judge because I am not at that level. And I don't think I am going to give you the answer you want. How do you quantify it. Because how people see music and the interpretation is a subjective thing. Two different judges may see things totally differently. But at the end of the day the reason why both judges made the decision they have is explainable and relevant.

It is like the question "How do you define music?" I have watched a couple of documentaries where even world renowned musicians say you cannot define music. Because it is so based on the emotional reaction to it.

Just as skaters have strengths and weaknesses, so are some judges more comfortable with certain aspects of the components and technical. For me the music is my strength and the area I need to work on is identifying transitions.

The one thing you have to do when judging is justify your decisions. At Nationals for myself I write like crazy between skaters because if I get asked a round table discussion why I gave a particular mark or component I have to explain it.

dinakt
04-12-2012, 06:29 AM
That is a brilliant post, os168. I agree to the bottom of my heart.
With one caveat- this year's program's by Kostner, her last year's "Faune" LP and , to a degree, Patrick's "Aranjues" go a long way for me to find a new respect for Nichol. It seems she CAN do unusual choreo that is highly attuned to music, but only, as is a case with Carolina, when a skater wants to step out of the box to create smth. highly memorable. I was so happy Carolina was rewarded in PCS. Her SP was brilliant and avantgarde, and LP- a vision of musical understanding. But often if unusual choreo is not by the biggest name in choreography, it is not easily accepted.

BTW, as a professional musician, I do not think musicality is so very subjective, personal preferences aside. It is just that it is hard to put in writing. If I could illustrate with jestures, or in musical notation, it would have been much easier.
The reason I keep not finding time to to play by play is that it is tedious and would take forever to write: "55 seconds in, when violins do so and so, the hand jesture accentuates the first phrase and goes in syncopation in the next measure, while feet do a rhythm of whole note- quarter/ quarter... etc". But it is possible to verbalize, just very difficult; and if one is trained, one notices those things rather automatically. Professional musicians and dancers still disagree like cats and dogs ( any musical competition is a testament to that), but I don't think there would be quite so much of somewhat easy 'reputation consensus" .

shine
04-12-2012, 06:55 AM
Considering Takahashi is what? 5 years older and has MUCH more experience than Chan, is it any really surprise that he is the more mature skater?

Is maturity a criteria in PCS?

Artists are born not made :)

mossop
04-12-2012, 09:13 AM
Artists are born not made :)
So are athletes. :)

Japanfan
04-12-2012, 09:42 AM
For example, are they able to give credible literal appraisals about each performance and capable of identify with small degree of musicality difference between the 10 skaters performing to the same music and rank them in order?


IMO few skaters are naturally musical, at least at the top level, because the athleticism needed to get there is fundamental. You can be the most musical skater in the world, but you'll never make it to the world stage without progressing beyond doubles.

There is also the quality of musicality that is expressed through choreography and skating skills - a quality that is learned. It's not so organic as natural musicality, but does merit positive PCS a lot of the time.

I'll add that I just rewatched Dai's 2010 World title winning La Strada. I was surprised to see how much his jumps and spins have improved since then. I thought it a great program at the time, but now it seems to be two brilliant footwork sequences set in an otherwise rather mediocre program.

Dai's come far since then. That program would not have earned him silver at this year's Worlds IMO.

os168
04-12-2012, 01:46 PM
To be perfectly honest I have no idea about the process of how you become an international judge because I am not at that level. And I don't think I am going to give you the answer you want. How do you quantify it. Because how people see music and the interpretation is a subjective thing. Two different judges may see things totally differently. But at the end of the day the reason why both judges made the decision they have is explainable and relevant.

It is like the question "How do you define music?" I have watched a couple of documentaries where even world renowned musicians say you cannot define music. Because it is so based on the emotional reaction to it.

Just as skaters have strengths and weaknesses, so are some judges more comfortable with certain aspects of the components and technical. For me the music is my strength and the area I need to work on is identifying transitions.

The one thing you have to do when judging is justify your decisions. At Nationals for myself I write like crazy between skaters because if I get asked a round table discussion why I gave a particular mark or component I have to explain it.

Actually to define music (just as to define good art) is not as hard as most think. There are skills, education, tools, tests, benchmarks, qualification available to train, develop to differentiate good musicality and interpretations. Take even the basic syllabus of the Yamaha music course for kids, one can learn to heighten and develop their musical intuition, interpretation, improvisation, develop skills and take exams for them. Or the judges can learn and watch alot of dancers in different styles, to be sensitive to the dancing movemment vocabulary and learn to easily identify the strength and weaknesses of each performer. Ideally these are the things all judges at world class level competition should able to do.

The judges judge the competition, who's judging the judges?

I definitely agree about appraise anything artistic, more literal explanation should be disclosed to the public beyond a 8.5/10... whatever that means. Problem is to develop these skills are likely to take great deal of time (maybe a life time's dedication) to learn and prove which I don't think you can find in a single judge that are equally knowledgeable about skating skills, various technicalities in skating, as well as good musicality and interpretation (except ice dancers and choreographers?), and expect more than 50 of them all have the same universal standard of excellence, and still be available to judging at world class ISU competitions all over the world.




With one caveat- this year's program's by Kostner, her last year's "Faune" LP and , to a degree, Patrick's "Aranjues" go a long way for me to find a new respect for Nichol. It seems she CAN do unusual choreo that is highly attuned to music, but only, as is a case with Carolina, when a skater wants to step out of the box to create smth. highly memorable. I was so happy Carolina was rewarded in PCS. Her SP was brilliant and avantgarde, and LP- a vision of musical understanding. But often if unusual choreo is not by the biggest name in choreography, it is not easily accepted.

BTW, as a professional musician, I do not think musicality is so very subjective, personal preferences aside. It is just that it is hard to put in writing. If I could illustrate with jestures, or in musical notation, it would have been much easier.

The reason I keep not finding time to to play by play is that it is tedious and would take forever to write: "55 seconds in, when violins do so and so, the hand jesture accentuates the first phrase and goes in syncopation in the next measure, while feet do a rhythm of whole note- quarter/ quarter... etc". But it is possible to verbalize, just very difficult; and if one is trained, one notices those things rather automatically. Professional musicians and dancers still disagree like cats and dogs ( any musical competition is a testament to that), but I don't think there would be quite so much of somewhat easy 'reputation consensus" .

Lori is a brilliant choreographer who knows the system really well, and take in consideration the of range of suitability the skater she designs for. That is why her programs always ends up more about her smarts rather than the growth of the performer like Abbott's FS program this year, Wagner's Black Swan and of course Dai's most matured and seasoned work this year.

IF and WHEN the system start to reward things for higher learning of artistic choreography, challenging and fully realized performance and programs, and start to award risks and unusual choreography based on skater's history and how far they surpass from previous, I'd bet she will come up something that will max out scores towards that direction. But for the moment, it doesn't. What is likely to work as proven in the past 2 years is a templated COP optimised format: back loaded with jumps, front loaded with time wasting spins and posing, doing something easy listening, find the easiest layout with the less risky content in order to max score for the skater in the interest of 'scoring' not the 'holistic' full realisation of the entire program and performance. What is the music concept of the program? Were the performer able to satisfactorily delivering that concept by the end of the performance?

It became a game of smarts rather than sports (everyone on a level playing field, have equal chances to win). Minimum effort maximum result as long you have momentum on the side, since the correct impressions marks tends to catch up 1 or 2 competitions later anyway. It is a nature and the weakness of human judging, the latency effect of cognitive processing and reaction and often over reaction and compensation that result a weird bio rhythm all its own. From what I can see, the current judging 'culture' are almost entirely based on what is safe, tried and tested bench marking, means it is unable to cope with measure things that are unquantifiable such as improvement in choreography from one competition to the next, upgraded content from the last, better performance than the last are all criteria that deserve greater merit as long as musicality, choreography, costume, makeup, creative themes are part of the sport that requires rhythm and interpretation.

I agree about Professional musicians and dancers still disagree like cats and dogs that is why at the highest level or art judging, you have a chair person that has the final say with a small panelist of highest quality of judging, and only those opinion counts and are accountable for their opinions. It is likely whatever conclusion they reach will be controversial, but at least the spectators will understand why instead of rioting and booing at medal ceremony, which is entirely unfair to the skaters involved.

I would be curious given so much negative reaction to Patrick's WC win this year based entirely on PCS, will his PCS drop slightly at next competition or perhaps a loud thud if he ends up having multiple falls vs a clean Dai or someone else with upgraded content?

mikeko
04-12-2012, 02:46 PM
But did Dai get the outpour complaint like Chan did? Nope. Those people who complained about Chan didn't get a fall call turned a blind eye when it happened to their favorite. Hypocrite much?

People didn't complain about Takahashi because they were smart enough to realize that the judges didn't call his fall in order to justify their decision not to call Chan's fall at 4CC. If they judges had called Takahashi's fall, they would have been accused for blatant double-standard. They did't call Takahashi's fall not for him, but to save their own asses.

Aussie Willy
04-12-2012, 11:26 PM
The judges judge the competition, who's judging the judges?

I do know internationally the judges get assessed after every competition and will get letters about their performance. There is a review panel of officials who look at what marks they have given and they have round table discussions after the events.