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Triple Butz
04-11-2012, 04:55 AM
First of all, I didn't say that. So don't put words in my mouth.

Second of all, that same goes to the Dai fans, only they think that Dai's the only great "performance", "artistry" blah blah blah, and HOW DARE ANYONE SCORES HIGHER THAN HIM. The judges must be bias! The judges must be corrupted! Blah blah blah boohoo whining whining whining... :rolleyes:

Do you think Samuel Contesti deserves higher PCS than Kozuka? Please explain.

Doubletoe
04-11-2012, 05:30 AM
Your post makes perfect sense for why things are the way they are, but that still doesn't mean that the judging doesn't need to change (or the system itself) IMO.

Honestly, I would like to see what would happen if they stopped throwing out the highest and lowest PCS marks and GOE marks. But this thread is not a discussion of what needs to be addressed in the judging system; it is a discussion of what Takahashi can do to beat Patrick Chan (presumably under the present judging system).

I agree with the poster who said Takahashi brings different artistic influences and styles of dance into his programs each year. This is one of the things that makes him my favorite male figure skater. For that matter, another thing that makes Dai my favorite male skater is that he doesn't waste time thinking about whether he is an artist or an athlete; he is both (just as the sport itself is both athletic and artistic) and he works his @$$ off showing it.

But it is also true that programs are judged on an individual basis, not as a body of work, so--at least in theory--the style chosen by each skater in each program should not be considered in the PCS marks. Neither should it affect the PCS marks if a skater skates to something he has skated to multiple times in the past (not naming names here, but, ahem! Brian Joubert!). But between you and me, I hope the judges are influenced on some level by Takahashi's versatility, because, as a skater, I can tell you it is extremely hard to skate to completely different styles and do it well. . . and that isn't a talent that Patrick has demonstrated to us yet, IMO.

P.S. Triple Butz, the one thing Chan has over Takahashi that is like crack to all judges is his unparalleled edge quality and glide over the ice. That will always trump any advantage to Takahashi stemming from a higher percentage of judges on any given judging panel who prefer Takahashi's style.

Japanfan
04-11-2012, 07:57 AM
Those belong to Star on Ice.

But entertainment and charisma can enhance a competitive program as well. Candeloro, Takahashi, Yagudin at times, and others, did well competitively.

However, whether those qualities should be/are rewarded in PCS is another question. If yes, then how should be measured or reflected in PCS? PER and INT would be the logical choices, but they are a lot of other qualities that factor into those categories as well, arguably more important ones.

spikydurian
04-11-2012, 08:11 AM
He is only lacking a clean quad and a clean quad triple. Then he will win.

So much has been said in this thread in relation to the thread query. Getting a wee bit tired of the played up rivalry between these two great skaters.

I still stick to ^^^ . Dai's marks will sky-rocket with two quads and clean programs. :)

walei
04-11-2012, 01:19 PM
But that's exactly the point: if it's truly subjective, then we would see different results with different panels. There is obviously a large percentage of the skating audience who find Dai to be superior in these areas (including skating insiders-- just watch the Eurosport broadcast) so if it is truly subjective, then there would have been some panels over the course of the season that would have demonstrated that preference as well. That has not been the case, which leads me to believe that the judges are not actively judging musical interpretation, and merely using that score to rank skaters based on reputation.

Additionally, all you would need to do is compare the scores of Contesti to those of Kozuka to see that the judges are not doing a good job. If they aren't doing a good job with the middle ranked skaters, what makes you think they are suddenly doing a better job at the top? :huh:

Yes, if PCS is truly subjective then we would see different result with different panels. But really, PCS should not be subjective. Even back in the 6.0 days they changed the name from Artistic Impression to Presentation marks to make the 2nd more objective. Whether ISU was successful or not is another story.

However as others have pointed out there are things PCS are marking that ARE objective and under those more quantifiable criteria yes Patrick should be scored higher. And I still like to see those who think Takahashi should score higher across the board give a quantifiable analysis that's more than "Dai skates one with the music like Picasso on ice while Chan skates like a soulless robot".

I'm not saying PCS is all good as I do think reputation judging ARE still in the PCS marks. I can't explain why Contesti outscored Kozuka except maybe Kozuka bombed bombed bombed his free skate which affected his secured skating skills. And before anyone say why Patrick's mark wasn't affected by his mistake, it was a freak fall towards the end of his program. Up till that point he rocked it with a quad, a quad triple, a triple axle, and many other jumps and good elements.

gkelly
04-11-2012, 01:33 PM
I think Dai uses his upper body quite a bit more in ways that are unique to a given piece of music. Chan is more stiff in his upper body, and demonstrated less versatility this past season.

See the respective circular step sequences:

Takahashi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64QdXaZsUxs&t=1m47s)

Chan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4&t=1m59s)

I guess what I'm talking about is using the rhythm of what the feet/blades are doing to reflect the music in ways that resonate through the whole body, as opposed to primarily the upper body.

As for versatility, that's hard to score with current trend of using one piece of music per program. You can't ask judges to remember what the skater did yesterday or last year when scoring what they did today.

Especially since there's no guarantee that any given judge would have seen the other performances. By the time you get to the Worlds freeskate it's highly unlikely the judges wouldn't be familiar with the medal contenders' oeuvre. But the system has to work for skaters the judges have never seen before either, be it 13-year-olds at their first JGP, skaters from small countries in the qualifying round at Worlds, etc.

Do we want the unity that can come from single musical sources, or do we want skaters to use 3, 4, 5 different pieces of music as was common 30 years ago so we can measure their versatility?

Versatility is a good way to attract fans, though. And it's a lot easier to show a wider range over the course of a longer career . . . although not all skaters make the effort. Even someone as artistically respected as Michelle Kwan pretty much found her comfort zone and stayed there.

Tanja90
04-11-2012, 02:05 PM
Some people liked to accuse the judges were bias at 4CC because Chan's two hands touch down were CLEARLY a fall. Well, Dai had the same thing, but of course, it's Dai, so he did NOT fall :lol:

Did I talk about 4CC and Patrick performance there? No...Daisuke didn't fall at worlds and I didn't complaing anything on 4CC so I don't see the point..

mikeko
04-11-2012, 02:11 PM
Some people liked to accuse the judges were bias at 4CC because Chan's two hands touch down were CLEARLY a fall. Well, Dai had the same thing, but of course, it's Dai, so he did NOT fall :lol:

ISU changed the application of their rule for fall for Chan at 4CC and was criticized for that, and had to stick with the change at the Worlds. I'm afraid that we'll see more like that until Sochi.

FunnyBut
04-11-2012, 02:16 PM
What does Takahashi need to do?

:D Two salchows and a triple lutz while wearing a blindfold :D

nlyoung
04-11-2012, 02:28 PM
I think we're giving the judges too much credit if we think they are even capable of interpreting the nuances of the music in the same way that many fans with music or dance training can. This is an athletic event and as such they are judging the athletic merits of a particular performance. As long as the skater makes an attempt to interpret their music, that has to be sufficient to get credit.

As I mentioned earlier (perhaps in another thread), whether a particular performance is better interpreted/choreographed than another has as much to do with the talents of the person who designed the program, usually the choreographer and/or coach. Obviously, skaters who can afford good programs will get a bump in their scores as a result, but should the bonus points be that great? For those who complain that Dai isn't credited for his amazing performance skills, of course he is. I tend to agree with those who think that for most judges of this athletic competition, skating skills will and should trump performance skills if the comparison is with a skater who also has decent presentation skills and has made an attempt to interpret the music as outlined in the rules.

Doubletoe
04-11-2012, 07:21 PM
I think we're giving the judges too much credit if we think they are even capable of interpreting the nuances of the music in the same way that many fans with music or dance training can. This is an athletic event and as such they are judging the athletic merits of a particular performance. As long as the skater makes an attempt to interpret their music, that has to be sufficient to get credit.

As I mentioned earlier (perhaps in another thread), whether a particular performance is better interpreted/choreographed than another has as much to do with the talents of the person who designed the program, usually the choreographer and/or coach. Obviously, skaters who can afford good programs will get a bump in their scores as a result, but should the bonus points be that great? For those who complain that Dai isn't credited for his amazing performance skills, of course he is. I tend to agree with those who think that for most judges of this athletic competition, skating skills will and should trump performance skills if the comparison is with a skater who also has decent presentation skills and has made an attempt to interpret the music as outlined in the rules.

First of all, I think you greatly underestimate figure skating judges. Not only have they spent years watching skaters interpret music and comparing them, but they are mostly former skaters who also did it themselves. Many of them also probably learned a certain amount of ice dance, even if they never became certified to judge it.

Second, look at how many programs Lori Nichol has been credited with as choreographer and look at how many of those programs actually look as well-choreographed as Carolina Kostner's. Very few. That's because there are a lot of good choreographers out there, but very few skaters who are able to do all of that choreography and do it well. They may dismiss it the first time they try it, or they may try to master it but fail to do it with fluidity so they water it down or just do something simpler instead. Also, don't forget skaters like Braden Overett, who actually choreographed his own programs and was brilliant. Regardless of who comes up with the choreography, those skaters who manage to actually master really good choreography deserve credit for that!

nlyoung
04-11-2012, 09:12 PM
First of all, I think you greatly underestimate figure skating judges. Not only have they spent years watching skaters interpret music and comparing them, but they are mostly former skaters who also did it themselves. Many of them also probably learned a certain amount of ice dance, even if they never became certified to judge it.

You make a good point, and I will confess to having made an over-generalization in my original post as, of course, not all judges are created equal. I do, however, stick to my original argument that some judges are not as qualified to understand the nuances we're talking about here. Just because a judge has skated in the past, even taken a few dance classes, does not make them an expert at defining "art", though they should be trained to understand "interpretation" as defined by COP. My point was not that they couldn't judge, just that the qualities they should be looking for are not necessarily the same as those one would expect to find in a professional dance performance.


Second, look at how many programs Lori Nichol has been credited with as choreographer and look at how many of those programs actually look as well-choreographed as Carolina Kostner's. Very few. That's because there are a lot of good choreographers out there, but very few skaters who are able to do all of that choreography and do it well. They may dismiss it the first time they try it, or they may try to master it but fail to do it with fluidity so they water it down or just do something simpler instead. Also, don't forget skaters like Braden Overett, who actually choreographed his own programs and was brilliant. Regardless of who comes up with the choreography, those skaters who manage to actually master really good choreography deserve credit for that!

I would argue that Carolina's performance was so brilliant precisely because of her technical mastery of the elements, and as such, of course she should get credit for it. But it is credit for her command of the technical aspects of the performance as much as anything else. It would perhaps not have been as interesting a program with different choreography, but had she performed it as well, it would have been just as beautiful. Great choreography performed poorly would certainly not have the same impact.

Those skaters who "water down" choreography are, in fact, lessening the technical content, and won't get the same credit. The tricky part is in comparing the simpler but clean performances with extremely complex, difficult choreography that is perhaps sloppy in places. It doesn't matter how great the choreography, without technical mastery it won't have the same impact. Patrick Chan is an interesting case, because he tends to have "burps" in his performance, with brilliance in between. His mistakes often don't impact his delivery of the rest of the performance, which is why he still gets credit from the judges for the material he has completed. This is the way COP has been set up as a way to reward technical elements performed well.

Dave of the North
04-11-2012, 11:56 PM
PCS through the years (free program worlds and Olympics):

Chan Takahashi

2008 67.62 76.75
2009 76.10 Did not compete
2010 O's 82.00 84.50
2010 W's 82.40 86.50
2011 91.52 82.08
2012 90.14 85.78

Note that the PCS score for Takahashi that seems to be upsetting people is the second highest he has ever received, and not much lower than when he won worlds.

Chan won by 6.45 points overall - what argument can be made to reduce his PCS/increase Takahashi's PCS by a total of 6.46? Not enough of one I don't think.

In TES they had the following issues
Chan
SP - 4T slight stepout - GOE: - 0.86 compared to SP - 4T-3T UR (<<)& bad landing GOE: - 2.86

Chan bobble in footwork - reduced to level 3 and GOE of 0.57 = 4.0 compared to Takahashi SlSt4 = 5.6

LP - FCCoSp1 - level 1 GOE: 0.79 = 2.79 compared to Takahashi FCCoSp4 = 4.21

Chan 3Lz+1Lo<+2S GOE = -1.4 total = 7.07 compared to Dai: 3Lz+2T+2Lo = 10.41

Chan - waxel 0.0 and -1.0 deduction (lost about 5.5 points here) Takahashi did a second TA: - 10.36

Takahashi also had two other jumps with -ve GOE

It seems that Chan got penalized for his mistakes according to the rules so I don't think there is any points to help make up that 6.46 difference here.

Aussie Willy
04-12-2012, 12:15 AM
You make a good point, and I will confess to having made an over-generalization in my original post as, of course, not all judges are created equal. I do, however, stick to my original argument that some judges are not as qualified to understand the nuances we're talking about here. Just because a judge has skated in the past, even taken a few dance classes, does not make them an expert at defining "art", though they should be trained to understand "interpretation" as defined by COP. My point was not that they couldn't judge, just that the qualities they should be looking for are not necessarily the same as those one would expect to find in a professional dance performance.

Hmmm speaking as a judge music is actually something I feel very strongly about. It think it helps to have actually learnt music and been a musician. Because then you not only understand timing (although that is pretty instinctive) but look at phrasing, nuances and all the other things you want to see the skater create pictures for you.

nlyoung
04-12-2012, 02:28 AM
Hmmm speaking as a judge music is actually something I feel very strongly about. It think it helps to have actually learnt music and been a musician. Because then you not only understand timing (although that is pretty instinctive) but look at phrasing, nuances and all the other things you want to see the skater create pictures for you.

You would be included among those judges who are qualified to judge the nuances. I wish all were like you. :)