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JanetB
04-10-2012, 06:57 PM
jettasian would have you believe that everyone skates like Kevin Van Der Perren in comparison to Chan and that everyone else deserves much lower PCS in comparison to him. :blah::shuffle:

No that is not what jettasian is saying, what he is saying is if you believe that a skater deserves higher PC, tell us why objectively. Don't just say, he's so musical or charismatic, do a proper analysis and tell us why you think skater A should get higher marks. Because up until now the only people giving any kind of factual analysis are Patrick Chan supporters.

Triple Butz
04-10-2012, 10:00 PM
No that is not what jettasian is saying, what he is saying is if you believe that a skater deserves higher PC, tell us why objectively. Don't just say, he's so musical or charismatic, do a proper analysis and tell us why you think skater A should get higher marks. Because up until now the only people giving any kind of factual analysis are Patrick Chan supporters.

Dai 1)Skates on beat all of the time. 2)Exhibits dance training from multiple styles. 3)Engages the audience. 4)Uses his entire body and facial expression to create phrases.

These are all things that Chan doesn't do. When Daisuke wanted to to do a program (or Jeremy for that matter) they seek out a specialist and master the dance and the style. Chan skates with pretty edges, but not with the authenticity and performance level of the two I mentioned above.

kwanfan1818
04-10-2012, 10:17 PM
Skating on the beat is not any more an absolute in skating than it is in dance. Balanchine tended to choreography on the beat, while Bournonville, another great master, choreographed through the bar lines. It's a different style.

Chan engages me, but so do many other cool, internal skaters, starting with Curry.

I think that Takahashi uses his entire body in a different way than Chan uses his entire body; Chan skates on more planes. Takahashi uses his face more, but, for me, that's not a positive thing.

Takahashi and Abbott do have the advantage of more stylistic variety. For me, this one point doesn't trump the others, partly because few dance styles translate properly to the ice.

Japanfan
04-10-2012, 10:26 PM
I think that Takahashi uses his entire body in a different way than Chan uses his entire body; Chan skates on more planes. Takahashi uses his face more, but, for me, that's not a positive thing.

Takahashi entertains and reaches out to the audience. When Kurt Browning asked Daisuke whether he considered himself an athlete or an artist, Dai said "I don't think about such things", which was telling and suggested he focuses most on what comes natural.

I find that Dai's facial expressions and audience-orientation contribute to his charisma and the emotion of his programs. But it's just one style of skating and not necessarily better than others.

gkelly
04-10-2012, 10:51 PM
Dai 1)Skates on beat all of the time. 2)Exhibits dance training from multiple styles. 3)Engages the audience. 4)Uses his entire body and facial expression to create phrases.

These are all things that Chan doesn't do.

I'll disagree about using the entire body to create phrases -- I think Chan does that at least as much as Takahashi.
And exhibiting different styles from one program to another is good for evaluating whole careers, but that's not what's being judged in any given program.

Neither of these guys has particularly strong extension in a ballet sense. But I do get the sense that Chan fills the space more with greater upper body extension/projection -- maybe just because he skates faster on bigger curves.

It's great when skaters bring inspiration from outside art forms to inform their skating. It's an extra treat for fans -- and judges -- who also appreciate those art forms. But aside from the ballroom aspects of compulsory and original short dances, authenticity to something outside of skating is not part of the judging criteria.

Fans and judges who are knowledgeable about the outside source of inspiration will "get" what the skater is doing with it and others won't.

Similarly, fans or judges might feel engaged by certain skaters (or resist engagement with others) for reasons other than what they do on the ice.

So these are the most subjective areas of the judging criteria. It makes more sense to say "This is what I felt about these performances, what I appreciated and what I missed. Here's how I would have scored them." rather than "The judges were wrong" or "The fans who have different favorites than I do are wrong."

Triple Butz
04-10-2012, 10:57 PM
I'll disagree about using the entire body to create phrases -- I think Chan does that at least as much as Takahashi.
And exhibiting different styles from one program to another is good for evaluating whole careers, but that's not what's being judged in any given program.

Neither of these guys has particularly strong extension in a ballet sense. But I do get the sense that Chan fills the space more with greater upper body extension/projection -- maybe just because he skates faster on bigger curves.

It's great when skaters bring inspiration from outside art forms to inform their skating. It's an extra treat for fans -- and judges -- who also appreciate those art forms. But aside from the ballroom aspects of compulsory and original short dances, authenticity to something outside of skating is not part of the judging criteria.

Fans and judges who are knowledgeable about the outside source of inspiration will "get" what the skater is doing with it and others won't.

Similarly, fans or judges might feel engaged by certain skaters (or resist engagement with others) for reasons other than what they do on the ice.

So these are the most subjective areas of the judging criteria. It makes more sense to say "This is what I felt about these performances, what I appreciated and what I missed. Here's how I would have scored them." rather than "The judges were wrong" or "The fans who have different favorites than I do are wrong."
If it's truly subjective, then why does Chan win the Performance and Interpretation scores in every single championship every single time? Oh, yeah, because judges aren't looking at interpretation and asking which they prefer, they're simply judging the skaters by reputation.

kwanfan1818
04-10-2012, 11:14 PM
It is a weakness of the judges' application of criteria that Leonova's FS was scored higher in CH and IN than Suzuki's, and that Suzuki's TR score was only .11 higher than Leonova's. (Oh, but I forgot: there are no rules for judges, only guidelines.)

I don't know how many people believe that the criteria are being applied fairly or independently on the whole -- it's an event when someone notices that one judge in a competition seems to have a bigger spread than most -- but sometimes, the criteria intersect with the scores.

walei
04-11-2012, 02:18 AM
If it's truly subjective, then why does Chan win the Performance and Interpretation scores in every single championship every single time? Oh, yeah, because judges aren't looking at interpretation and asking which they prefer, they're simply judging the skaters by reputation.

Because IMO for PCS there are subjective and objective parts. The objective parts (how the skater use the blade and move in different levels, planes, directions etc) Chan is ahead of the rest of the pack. The subjective parts (artistry, skate with 'souls' or in the spirit of the music interpretation, whatever those mean) it depend on judges to judges.

Maybe the subjective parts can tip the scale when two skaters are really close, but add to the objective parts as Rock2 spoken in details of I still don't see what is so biased scoring Chan above Takahashi.

jettasian
04-11-2012, 03:38 AM
Daisuke didn't fall...just a very bad step out...the most part oh his weight wasn't on his hand...but even the step out of chan on the quad and the lost of balance on the steps didn't affect his score right?


But of course Patrick always has those 5 points cushion for his fall/mistake...I tend to forget that...

I didn't say that Daisuke skated a flawless sp..they both made some mistakes, but mistakes apart Daisuke skated better than Chan did...

You really should watch the commetary of british eurosport...

Some people liked to accuse the judges were bias at 4CC because Chan's two hands touch down were CLEARLY a fall. Well, Dai had the same thing, but of course, it's Dai, so he did NOT fall :lol:

jettasian
04-11-2012, 03:41 AM
jettasian would have you believe that everyone skates like Kevin Van Der Perren in comparison to Chan and that everyone else deserves much lower PCS in comparison to him. :blah::shuffle:

First of all, I didn't say that. So don't put words in my mouth.

Second of all, that same goes to the Dai fans, only they think that Dai's the only great "performance", "artistry" blah blah blah, and HOW DARE ANYONE SCORES HIGHER THAN HIM. The judges must be bias! The judges must be corrupted! Blah blah blah boohoo whining whining whining... :rolleyes:

jettasian
04-11-2012, 03:43 AM
Takahashi entertains and reaches out to the audience. When Kurt Browning asked Daisuke whether he considered himself an athlete or an artist, Dai said "I don't think about such things", which was telling and suggested he focuses most on what comes natural.

I find that Dai's facial expressions and audience-orientation contribute to his charisma and the emotion of his programs. But it's just one style of skating and not necessarily better than others.

Those belong to Star on Ice.

jettasian
04-11-2012, 03:46 AM
If it's truly subjective, then why does Chan win the Performance and Interpretation scores in every single championship every single time? Oh, yeah, because judges aren't looking at interpretation and asking which they prefer, they're simply judging the skaters by reputation.

Chan won because he was superior than Dai in PCS. Of course Dai fans don't like to hear that. Ouch! :rolleyes:

Dai has NO BODYLINE. All he did was moving his arms, busily, faster than his feet. If that's called "choreography" and "artistry", then I'm glad the judges didn't buy them.

agalisgv
04-11-2012, 03:50 AM
Obviously they can't do that for the first competition of the season, or for skaters whose performances are not posted on youtube. Which is the vast majority of skaters that they will need to judge over the course of the season. I remember several years ago someone talked about this here. I believe it was a former judge, and they said judges frequently attend the practice sessions to see what the elements are for the programs, and to get a feel for what they'll be seeing later in the competition. It helps them to know what to be looking for.

ETA: Just fyi jettasian--there's a multiquote function for a reason ;)
I'll disagree about using the entire body to create phrases -- I think Chan does that at least as much as Takahashi. I think Dai uses his upper body quite a bit more in ways that are unique to a given piece of music. Chan is more stiff in his upper body, and demonstrated less versatility this past season.

I think the exhibition Chan did to Buttle's choreography better plays to his interpretive strengths and makes his upper body look much more fluid.
It's great when skaters bring inspiration from outside art forms to inform their skating. It's an extra treat for fans -- and judges -- who also appreciate those art forms. But aside from the ballroom aspects of compulsory and original short dances, authenticity to something outside of skating is not part of the judging criteria. I'll disagree with you here too. Music itself is outside of skating. The critiques of Plush are that he skates the same to every piece of music. There is an expectation that skating will match a particular piece of music.

Just looking at the long programs for Chan and Dai, Dai's program was much more choreographed to reflect the mood, tenor, and style of the music. Chan's program could much more easily be transposed onto another piece of music. That's where the interpretation mark comes in--how well did the skater interpret this very particular piece of music? On that, I think Dai did a far better job. And that, of course, gets into choreography as well as performance and execution.

Marco
04-11-2012, 03:59 AM
nevermind

Triple Butz
04-11-2012, 04:53 AM
Because IMO for PCS there are subjective and objective parts. The objective parts (how the skater use the blade and move in different levels, planes, directions etc) Chan is ahead of the rest of the pack. The subjective parts (artistry, skate with 'souls' or in the spirit of the music interpretation, whatever those mean) it depend on judges to judges.

Maybe the subjective parts can tip the scale when two skaters are really close, but add to the objective parts as Rock2 spoken in details of I still don't see what is so biased scoring Chan above Takahashi.

But that's exactly the point: if it's truly subjective, then we would see different results with different panels. There is obviously a large percentage of the skating audience who find Dai to be superior in these areas (including skating insiders-- just watch the Eurosport broadcast) so if it is truly subjective, then there would have been some panels over the course of the season that would have demonstrated that preference as well. That has not been the case, which leads me to believe that the judges are not actively judging musical interpretation, and merely using that score to rank skaters based on reputation.

Additionally, all you would need to do is compare the scores of Contesti to those of Kozuka to see that the judges are not doing a good job. If they aren't doing a good job with the middle ranked skaters, what makes you think they are suddenly doing a better job at the top? :huh: