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Triple Butz
04-10-2012, 12:19 AM
Much appreciated! While Chan's interpretation and in-between skating are difficult and subtle, I find Takahashi's to be difficult and intricate/specific. From a judge's point of view, that difference is probably just a matter of personal preference, but from the point of view of the average spectator, I think that makes Takahashi's interpretation more apparent. Coupled with his more emotionally expressive style, that probably makes most audiences appreciate his performances over Chan's. I think Chan is a judges' skater. His gorgeous edges make such an impression on them that he gets an automatic 5-point PCS bonus from most judges before he even does his first jump or spin.

If that's the case, shouldn't there be a larger variation in the marks? Shouldn't Daisuke occasionally get a panel where he comes out on top overall in certain PCS categories?

Don't confuse people who hate Chan's scores and people who hate Chan. Chan is a very talented skater, but his marks have been the result of reputation judging plain and simple. Some of you choose not to see it.

Tanja90
04-10-2012, 01:19 AM
There is a difference between "not skating well" and "not to the full potential".

We have set such a high standard for Chan that we seem to forget that what might not be "his full potential" would be a "skate the lights out" for another skater.

You may have set a high standard for Chan...he didn't skate at his full potential and certainly he didn't skate the lights out for what I, and most part of the crowd, saw...

Doubletoe
04-10-2012, 01:35 AM
If that's the case, shouldn't there be a larger variation in the marks? Shouldn't Daisuke occasionally get a panel where he comes out on top overall in certain PCS categories?

Well, my theory is that Chan pretty much gets a +5 PCS bonus due to his gorgeous edge quality (yes, he gets reputation points, but so does Takahashi), but we all know the scoring system practically forces judges to spread out their PCS for each skater pretty evenly across that skater's 5 PCS marks. If a judge wanted to give Chan a higher total PCS score than Takahashi's and dared to put most of that difference into Chan's Skating Skills score where it belongs, hers would be the highest mark in Patrick's Skating Skills and her mark would get thrown out in the final PCS computation. Same issue with giving a skater the lowest mark in a particular PCS category. Giving Chan an 8.25 in Interpretation will not make a statement, it will just get that mark thrown out. No judge wants to risk submitting the highest or lowest PCS mark because it will get thrown out. . . but they do love Patrick's edges. . .

jettasian
04-10-2012, 02:46 AM
The short program: he and Daisuke made a similar mistake (step out for both, and Daisuke got downgraded the 3toe and Patrick had a very visible lost of balance in his steps...something judges didn't see I guess) but in Daisuke case, the step out was immediatly forgotten sice he skated perfectly the rest of his program putting all his soul in it and that program is a masterpiece IMO...Patrick on the other hand was nervous and skated like a robot...ok the other elements were perfect but there was nothing else in the program...He really didn't skate that sp at full potential...still he got better pcs...I cannot understand it. IMO Daisuke score was right, it was chan's that was score too much.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Yes, Dai's mistake is non-issue. Heck, he didn't even get a deduction for it! I mean, that should be a fall, isn't it? Of couse, it's Dai, his mistakes are non-issues.
Chan's score was right, however, Dai got held from his PCS. He FELL on the jump, yet, it did NOT affect his PCS at all.



Don't confuse people who hate Chan's scores and people who hate Chan. Chan is a very talented skater, but his marks have been the result of reputation judging plain and simple. Some of you choose not to see it.

It's the same from the Dai fans. Chan won, they hated it, that's it.

And as for about the judging favoritism, again, it's just some people like to make that up without any proof or whatsoever. It's not that some people choose not to see, because THERE ISN"T. I think it's more like people refuse to see that Judges just thought Chan's better in SS, CH, IT, TR than Dai. As simple as that!

jettasian
04-10-2012, 02:54 AM
You may have set a high standard for Chan...he didn't skate at his full potential and certainly he didn't skate the lights out for what I, and most part of the crowd, saw...

Nor Dai. He watered down this LP, his jumps were shaky and did not have much flow.

walei
04-10-2012, 03:30 AM
I still like to see those who think Dai should score higher than Chan in the PCS do a tangible quantitative analysis like Rock2 did instead of just blurting out things similar to "LOLZ Do you know what art is" or "LOLZ Chan skates like a robot".

Aussie Willy
04-10-2012, 03:34 AM
You may have set a high standard for Chan...he didn't skate at his full potential and certainly he didn't skate the lights out for what I, and most part of the crowd, saw...
It is not me, I think most people set a very high standard for him. And that is fine to say he didn't skate to his full potential. However to say that he did not skate well is an understatement of how he actually skated. He still managed pretty much all the technical content in the program that he set out to do.

ponta1
04-10-2012, 03:49 AM
The explanation is out there. If you like it, well, that's your choice. It's funny that the Chan haters like to whine about why Chan's marks are so high. When someone explains in detail to them, all they do is whine some more and blah blah blah...:rofl:

You're so quick to label anyone who doesn't agree with you as a "Chan Hater"; regardless of whether that person expresses admiration for Chan's qualities. So, by the same token, I guess you're a "Takahashi Hater"?

kittyjake5
04-10-2012, 04:05 AM
I still like to see those who think Dai should score higher than Chan in the PCS do a tangible quantitative analysis like Rock2 did instead of just blurting out things similar to "LOLZ Do you know what art is" or "LOLZ Chan skates like a robot".

cuz the force is with us and we don't need to explain, we see. :D

Triple Butz
04-10-2012, 04:28 AM
Well, my theory is that Chan pretty much gets a +5 PCS bonus due to his gorgeous edge quality (yes, he gets reputation points, but so does Takahashi), but we all know the scoring system practically forces judges to spread out their PCS for each skater pretty evenly across that skater's 5 PCS marks. If a judge wanted to give Chan a higher total PCS score than Takahashi's and dared to put most of that difference into Chan's Skating Skills score where it belongs, hers would be the highest mark in Patrick's Skating Skills and her mark would get thrown out in the final PCS computation. Same issue with giving a skater the lowest mark in a particular PCS category. Giving Chan an 8.25 in Interpretation will not make a statement, it will just get that mark thrown out. No judge wants to risk submitting the highest or lowest PCS mark because it will get thrown out. . . but they do love Patrick's edges. . .

Your post makes perfect sense for why things are the way they are, but that still doesn't mean that the judging doesn't need to change (or the system itself) IMO.

Zemgirl
04-10-2012, 07:15 AM
The explanation is out there. If you like it, well, that's your choice. It's funny that the Chan haters like to whine about why Chan's marks are so high. When someone explains in detail to them, all they do is whine some more and blah blah blah...:rofl:
I fear you have some reading comprehension issues; look at my post again, and you will see that I am not a "Chan-hater". I don't know Patrick Chan, and I certainly do not hate him. I merely do not share your admiration for some of his skating qualities. Since this is FSU and not PCU, I believe my viewpoint is allowed. Deal with it.

Now, to get back to the actual subject of this thread: someone posted elsewhere that Dai's main goal this season was apparently to get his quad consistent, even if at times it meant focusing less on the performance. I don't know if this is true, but it could explain the difference some people perceived between his LP performances as the season wore on (I don't believe I've seen similar concerns expressed about his SP).

Tanja90
04-10-2012, 11:13 AM
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Yes, Dai's mistake is non-issue. Heck, he didn't even get a deduction for it! I mean, that should be a fall, isn't it? Of couse, it's Dai, his mistakes are non-issues.
Chan's score was right, however, Dai got held from his PCS. He FELL on the jump, yet, it did NOT affect his PCS at all.





Daisuke didn't fall...just a very bad step out...the most part oh his weight wasn't on his hand...but even the step out of chan on the quad and the lost of balance on the steps didn't affect his score right?


But of course Patrick always has those 5 points cushion for his fall/mistake...I tend to forget that...

I didn't say that Daisuke skated a flawless sp..they both made some mistakes, but mistakes apart Daisuke skated better than Chan did...

You really should watch the commetary of british eurosport...

Tanja90
04-10-2012, 11:16 AM
It is not me, I think most people set a very high standard for him. And that is fine to say he didn't skate to his full potential. However to say that he did not skate well is an understatement of how he actually skated. He still managed pretty much all the technical content in the program that he set out to do.

Ok sorry.
But I don't think it's and understatement to say he didn't skate well. I compare the programs he did at worlds last year and I didn't see the sparkle I saw there. He is capable of much more and for his standard he didn't skate well..even with that technical content...

Tanja90
04-10-2012, 11:20 AM
Nor Dai. He watered down this LP, his jumps were shaky and did not have much flow.

Maybe not..but better than Chan for sure IMO. watering down his program you say? He did 2 perfect 3axels and a quad, while Patrick had 2 quads and a 3axel, plus a missing elements thanks to the freaky fall...there wasn't much difference in the technical content...He had just a shaky landing on the 3a3t but everything else was good...Of course on tv things looks different...

Still I wasn't complaining on the technical side but on PCS...

museksk8r
04-10-2012, 04:41 PM
Still I wasn't complaining on the technical side but on PCS...

jettasian would have you believe that everyone skates like Kevin Van Der Perren in comparison to Chan and that everyone else deserves much lower PCS in comparison to him. :blah::shuffle: