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DELTA
04-09-2012, 01:10 AM
There's nothing he can do unless they change scoring that favors Chan.

LilJen
04-09-2012, 01:17 AM
I noticed in the NBC coverage, in addition to the snowy, slow, non-flowy jump landings, some really rather slow spins. His camels are particularly slow. Now, I can see that it's tough to do a really fast camel to the slow, slouchy music of Blues for Klook, but there's another place he's definitely throwing away points.

It's amazing to me how well he's done in spite of the knee problems.

spikydurian
04-09-2012, 01:22 AM
There's nothing he can do unless they change scoring that favors Chan.

Chan, without quads, didn't win with the same scoring system. When quads was tweaked to give more incentive to skaters for trying, Chan got his quads and started winning. The scoring system was not tweaked to favour Chan. He just happened to be in the position to use to his skills to maximise points.

Perhaps they should take away the quad points? It will make a lot of skaters who have not tamed their quads happier. (But Plushenko's fans may complain then.) :)

Fozzie Bear
04-09-2012, 02:39 AM
I love Takahashi's and Abbott's skating. I like Chan's skating. I understand the explanations for his winning the PCS due to having more transitions, more choreography, more interpretation if you break the program up and look at the different sections, etc-- but even though there's more more more, the whole doesn't equal the sum of the parts for me. And I suspect that many others feel the same way.

I love and appreciate his footwork sequences, but I tend to zone out during the rest of his programs (in spite of his having "more" interpretation). I was hoping to love his LP because of the gorgeous music, but I still found it dull (but much better than PotO, thankfully). Takahashi and Abbott perform with an emotional commitment and an authenticity that I don't sense from Chan. And I know those aren't part of the scoring system. Guess I'm just trying to make sense of what's preventing me from loving Chan's skating.

DELTA
04-09-2012, 02:50 AM
Chan, without quads, didn't win with the same scoring system. When quads was tweaked to give more incentive to skaters for trying, Chan got his quads and started winning. The scoring system was not tweaked to favour Chan. He just happened to be in the position to use to his skills to maximise points.

Perhaps they should take away the quad points? It will make a lot of skaters who have not tamed their quads happier. (But Plushenko's fans may complain then.) :)

I'm not talking about the quad. Errors should have greater impact PSC.

nlyoung
04-09-2012, 03:46 AM
The problem for anti-Chan fans who want larger penalties for unsuccessful quads and other jumps (after all, why should Chan get points for falls :lynch: - clearly this is why he is winning unfairly) is that Chan is incredibly consistent on these jumps now. It wouldn't change the final standings... The irony is that he tends to "fall" on easier elements or for no reason, not the "big tricks" and would lose far fewer points as a result.

Dragonlady
04-09-2012, 06:03 AM
Chan, without quads, didn't win with the same scoring system. When quads was tweaked to give more incentive to skaters for trying, Chan got his quads and started winning.

Chan won 3 Grand Prix events, the 2009 4CC Championship, and two Worlds Silver Medals BEFORE he landed a quad in competition so it's ridiculous to say he didn't win without a quad.

Chan landed his first quad at Liberty in 2009 and it was his intention to have it for the Olympics. But he tore up his calf muscle later in the summer, lost a lot of training time, and fell way behind in his preparations for Vancouver. The rule change had nothing to do with Chan acquiring a quad. It was always planned for the Olympic year but didn't happen because of the injury, so he added it the following season.

Tanja90
04-09-2012, 08:53 PM
He won worlds. Boy I am not sure what people expect from him to acknowledge that skated well. :rolleyes:

As I said I saw the sp and lp live and he did NOT skate that well..not as his full potential...

The short program: he and Daisuke made a similar mistake (step out for both, and Daisuke got downgraded the 3toe and Patrick had a very visible lost of balance in his steps...something judges didn't see I guess) but in Daisuke case, the step out was immediatly forgotten sice he skated perfectly the rest of his program putting all his soul in it and that program is a masterpiece IMO...Patrick on the other hand was nervous and skated like a robot...ok the other elements were perfect but there was nothing else in the program...He really didn't skate that sp at full potential...still he got better pcs...I cannot understand it. IMO Daisuke score was right, it was chan's that was score too much.

As for the Lp, chan had better technical content (not so much...2 quads, a 3axel and a fall with a missing element, while daisuke had 1quad and two 3a) but still I felt like there was a machine skating to that program and he was nervous...Daisuke brought the house down with his blues. Still he had the lower pcs...

Chan really deserved the title last year but not this year...Judges did their job really well...and I am not blaming Patrick. He's really a wonderful skater, one of the bests in these years but I don't agree with the scores he receive by the judges. It's them I am blaming. It's not fear to him, to the other skaters and to us watchers and lovers of figure skating.

jettasian
04-09-2012, 09:39 PM
Just watching the NBC coverage and I was reminded of something.

For those saying ridiculous things like Takahashi has to change his name to Chan or skate for Canada - did you remember that Hanyu finished above Takahashi in the freeskate WITH A FALL?

Because Chan haters only care about him beating out their beloved Dai. Nothing else matters. Chan beating out Dai is a sin.


Also - back to the original question - Tracy Wilson (who loves him despite her unfortunate circumstance of being a biased and stupid Canadian (!) ) pointed out the snow flying and lack of speed coming out of Takahashi's jumps. So that is one answer from one person to the OP question.

Some people don't care. They only count miskates.

jettasian
04-09-2012, 09:49 PM
:rofl::rofl::rofl: Do you have any experience in the music or dance world? This is some funny stuff.

Everyone has a right to their opinions, but the real problem here is the way that the judging has gone down. There are obviously observers who prefer one stylist to the other, but clearly the audiences as well as many posters here (some with performance degrees and experience) see Daisuke as a much more mature, complete performer. If that is the case, why is it that in EVERY competition,
Patrick wins ALL areas of PCS EVERY single time? Surely, there must be some judges who feel that Daisuke is superior in some areas, but they stay in line with the panel and judge based on reputation.

As already explained by Rock2, Chan beats Dai in terms of SS, CH, IT, TR.... If people refused to see that PCS is based on these components...well, nothing can. By saying Dai is better than Chan in PCS is NOT going to do it. Break them down...and Chan is better than Dai in most, if not all, of PCS components.

jettasian
04-09-2012, 09:53 PM
Yes, I get the idea - Patrick Chan must be superior to everyone, in everything, ever. It's not enough that he has strong skating skills, there will be articles about how he has the best edges ever. It's not enough that he gets good marks on the jumps, we must all admire his difficult entries, even if they are sometimes pretty much the same as many other skaters'. And it's not sufficient for him to get high IN marks, we must all believe that these marks reflect some kind of genius interpretation.

Well, I disagree. I won't argue that Chan isn't a good skater; of course he is. But this over the top gushing and ultra-high scoring is really off-putting to many people, especially when it seems less than true to the reality we see on the ice.

The bolded part, by the way, makes it seem like Dai is actually entrusted by his choreographer to interpret the music, while Patrick has to be told exactly what to do and when, or else he could never figure it out. Considering the frequent criticism that Chan is robotic and just going through the motions, is that really the argument you want to make?

The explanation is out there. If you like it, well, that's your choice. It's funny that the Chan haters like to whine about why Chan's marks are so high. When someone explains in detail to them, all they do is whine some more and blah blah blah...:rofl:

Vash01
04-09-2012, 11:10 PM
As I said I saw the sp and lp live and he did NOT skate that well..not as his full potential...

The short program: he and Daisuke made a similar mistake (step out for both, and Daisuke got downgraded the 3toe and Patrick had a very visible lost of balance in his steps...something judges didn't see I guess) but in Daisuke case, the step out was immediatly forgotten sice he skated perfectly the rest of his program putting all his soul in it and that program is a masterpiece IMO...Patrick on the other hand was nervous and skated like a robot...ok the other elements were perfect but there was nothing else in the program...He really didn't skate that sp at full potential...still he got better pcs...I cannot understand it. IMO Daisuke score was right, it was chan's that was score too much.

As for the Lp, chan had better technical content (not so much...2 quads, a 3axel and a fall with a missing element, while daisuke had 1quad and two 3a) but still I felt like there was a machine skating to that program and he was nervous...Daisuke brought the house down with his blues. Still he had the lower pcs...

Chan really deserved the title last year but not this year...Judges did their job really well...and I am not blaming Patrick. He's really a wonderful skater, one of the bests in these years but I don't agree with the scores he receive by the judges. It's them I am blaming. It's not fear to him, to the other skaters and to us watchers and lovers of figure skating.

Excellent post Tanja. It's great that you saw the competition live.

Aussie Willy
04-09-2012, 11:28 PM
As I said I saw the sp and lp live and he did NOT skate that well..not as his full potential...

There is a difference between "not skating well" and "not to the full potential".

We have set such a high standard for Chan that we seem to forget that what might not be "his full potential" would be a "skate the lights out" for another skater.

Doubletoe
04-09-2012, 11:49 PM
Entire post
Much appreciated! While Chan's interpretation and in-between skating are difficult and subtle, I find Takahashi's to be difficult and intricate/specific. From a judge's point of view, that difference is probably just a matter of personal preference, but from the point of view of the average spectator, I think that makes Takahashi's interpretation more apparent. Coupled with his more emotionally expressive style, that probably makes most audiences appreciate his performances over Chan's. I think Chan is a judges' skater. His gorgeous edges make such an impression on them that he gets an automatic 5-point PCS bonus from most judges before he even does his first jump or spin.

skaterdelight
04-10-2012, 12:01 AM
As I said I saw the sp and lp live and he did NOT skate that well..not as his full potential...

The short program: he and Daisuke made a similar mistake (step out for both, and Daisuke got downgraded the 3toe and Patrick had a very visible lost of balance in his steps...something judges didn't see I guess) but in Daisuke case, the step out was immediatly forgotten sice he skated perfectly the rest of his program putting all his soul in it and that program is a masterpiece IMO...Patrick on the other hand was nervous and skated like a robot...ok the other elements were perfect but there was nothing else in the program...He really didn't skate that sp at full potential...still he got better pcs...I cannot understand it. IMO Daisuke score was right, it was chan's that was score too much.

As for the Lp, chan had better technical content (not so much...2 quads, a 3axel and a fall with a missing element, while daisuke had 1quad and two 3a) but still I felt like there was a machine skating to that program and he was nervous...Daisuke brought the house down with his blues. Still he had the lower pcs...

Chan really deserved the title last year but not this year...Judges did their job really well...and I am not blaming Patrick. He's really a wonderful skater, one of the bests in these years but I don't agree with the scores he receive by the judges. It's them I am blaming. It's not fear to him, to the other skaters and to us watchers and lovers of figure skating.


Lucky you! The experience of seeing a competition live is fantastic compared to TV. Like seeing a painting for real and seeing a picture of a painting. You can still tell if it's good and enjoy it but seeing the real thing is so much better. Agree with your post. Thought Chan's PCS overscored and given credit for what wasn't there. Dai seems to have the popular vote though judging by audience reaction and it's nice to know people appreciate him no matter what the scores are. Blame the judges, not the competitors.

Also agree with Mevreouw's post that we should take the negativity down because even though I'm a Takahashi fan, a competition is so much better when several high level competitors participate and both Chan and Takahashi have paid their dues in training and physical suffering to give us these great performances.