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Triple Butz
04-08-2012, 06:37 PM
The main difference though is seen throughout the program. Dinakt you comment about Dai's interesting choreo and interpretation and that's precisely where I think he should improve. He has a distinct lack of variety in his movement; outside of footwork he remains upright throughout the program and only interprets the music with his arms and facial expressions. His transitional footwork is simpler than Patricks and isn't always done to to the music.

Patrick on the other hand uses his whole body to interpret the music and unlike Dai his movements are uniquely created to express the music. For many of Dai's arm movements it's almost like his choreographer said "ok and move your arms to the music however you want here..." vs Patrick's movements are very specific. I didn't see any of the following from Dai which makes his choreo and interpretation far less interesting: low to high body movement, expression with low to high knee movement, body leans, lunges, varied arm movement, use of head turns, hops, wide range of sharp and fluid arm movements...you get the idea

And, overall, my point was Patrick also used and interpreted much more of the music than Dai did. I pointed out places where Dai skated right through the music which happened in a few places in different parts of the program.

:rofl::rofl::rofl: Do you have any experience in the music or dance world? This is some funny stuff.

Everyone has a right to their opinions, but the real problem here is the way that the judging has gone down. There are obviously observers who prefer one stylist to the other, but clearly the audiences as well as many posters here (some with performance degrees and experience) see Daisuke as a much more mature, complete performer. If that is the case, why is it that in EVERY competition, Patrick wins ALL areas of PCS EVERY single time? Surely, there must be some judges who feel that Daisuke is superior in some areas, but they stay in line with the panel and judge based on reputation.

Zemgirl
04-08-2012, 07:08 PM
I wouldn't (and wasn't) boil this down to the first 60 seconds. And I'm befuddled by references to Dai's more interesting interpretation. Perhaps you find Dai's charisma and music more interesting. That's not worth much unfortunately. His specific CH and IN are not.
...
Patrick on the other hand uses his whole body to interpret the music and unlike Dai his movements are uniquely created to express the music. For many of Dai's arm movements it's almost like his choreographer said "ok and move your arms to the music however you want here..." vs Patrick's movements are very specific. I didn't see any of the following from Dai which makes his choreo and interpretation far less interesting: low to high body movement, expression with low to high knee movement, body leans, lunges, varied arm movement, use of head turns, hops, wide range of sharp and fluid arm movements...you get the idea.
Yes, I get the idea - Patrick Chan must be superior to everyone, in everything, ever. It's not enough that he has strong skating skills, there will be articles about how he has the best edges ever. It's not enough that he gets good marks on the jumps, we must all admire his difficult entries, even if they are sometimes pretty much the same as many other skaters'. And it's not sufficient for him to get high IN marks, we must all believe that these marks reflect some kind of genius interpretation.

Well, I disagree. I won't argue that Chan isn't a good skater; of course he is. But this over the top gushing and ultra-high scoring is really off-putting to many people, especially when it seems less than true to the reality we see on the ice.

The bolded part, by the way, makes it seem like Dai is actually entrusted by his choreographer to interpret the music, while Patrick has to be told exactly what to do and when, or else he could never figure it out. Considering the frequent criticism that Chan is robotic and just going through the motions, is that really the argument you want to make?

Dragonlady
04-08-2012, 07:37 PM
Everyone has a right to their opinions, but the real problem here is the way that the judging has gone down. There are obviously observers who prefer one stylist to the other, but clearly the audiences as well as many posters here (some with performance degrees and experience) see Daisuke as a much more mature, complete performer. If that is the case, why is it that in EVERY competition, Patrick wins ALL areas of PCS EVERY single time? Surely, there must be some judges who feel that Daisuke is superior in some areas, but they stay in line with the panel and judge based on reputation.

Not ALL of the audience agrees that Dai should have won. Not ALL of the posters think Dai has better intrepreation. Even Daisuke applauded Patrick's win.

When you consistenly have a higher degree of difficulty in your elements, and in your choreography, you will consistely have higher scores. Why is that so difficult to understand? Everyone howls when a skater waters down their technical and gets high PCS scores. Dai waters down his choreography and people howl that he doesn't get higher PCS scores. Double standard at play here.

Triple Butz
04-08-2012, 08:17 PM
Not ALL of the audience agrees that Dai should have won. Not ALL of the posters think Dai has better intrepreation. Even Daisuke applauded Patrick's win.

When you consistenly have a higher degree of difficulty in your elements, and in your choreography, you will consistely have higher scores. Why is that so difficult to understand? Everyone howls when a skater waters down their technical and gets high PCS scores. Dai waters down his choreography and people howl that he doesn't get higher PCS scores. Double standard at play here.

You've completely missed the point. The point is that SOME judging panels should see Daisuke as superior just like SOME (and I'm tempted to say most) observers do. That has never happened this season.

When has Daisuke watered down his choreography? Do you even know what a double standard is? :rofl:

middle
04-08-2012, 08:22 PM
Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan

Here's a link to Dai in Nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI
Usova/Zhulin 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxseLaxl61s
Chan in Nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4


I love Dai; he's charismatic and invests himself emotionally. But you have to pull that out of the analysis because those intangibles only count for so much in the PE IN and CH marks. So many other things matter.

His two main shortfalls are (compared to Chan)
1. The number of opportunities missed to interpret the music in a meaningful way and
2. The lack of variety in his movement and ways to interpret the music.

As for #1, there are places in the program where he doesn't really acknowledge the music.

The first main part is through first 3 elements (0-1:20)
-other than first 15 sec of program not many body movements connected to the music. Three turns after quad count for transitions but don't connect to music. Almost none of the notes acknowledged although some good transitional moves

Musical transition (2:53 - 4:00)
-Intensity picks up in the music with more furtive string instrument work. Dai's energy does not similarly amp up and there is very little movement that connects to the music. He does move his arms around but not in relation to the music. This is the best example here of missed opportunities to highlight the music. Arm movements, simpler connecting footwork and head bops. All very good but not worthy of 9s

Compare that section specifically...2:53 to about 3:10 to Usova/Zhulin 6:10 to 6:40. Same cut of music. U/Z hit the notes and varied their body movement. More importantly their energy and speed surged with the music whereas Dai kept to one level of energy and kept the choreo to simple arm movements. Doesn't compare. Note that just before this section he stripped out a number of transitional moves he had earlier in the year at the J.O.

As for #2, watching the program again with a more critical eye, I've now become even more aware of the lack of variety in his movement compared to Patrick. I now find that Dai's program is again simple arm movements and simpler footwork movements and sporadic edge work. And, outside of footwork everything he does is completely upright. Comparatively easy.

With Patrick I see something different. Already in the first 20 seconds he uses almost every edge and rocks on them to the music. His body goes from high to low which you never see from Dai. Impacts choreo and IN part depending on how judges see it.
-Also unlike Dai Patrick is up and down in his knees to the music even going into his hard early jumps, something Dai never does.
-3A lands on a musical transition. Harder to do and gets more credit.

Patrick has a much more well developed vocabulary in edges and turns. He highlights almost all of the notes and with an incredible variety of movement that incorporates his entire body. Lots of hops, directional changes and varied arm movements that are sharp or fluid all relative to what the music dictates.

I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.
Your comparison was very interesting and I think you have highlighted some of their skating characteristics in common.

But it is just the comparison between the free skating programs in this season and if you choose, for example, the short programs instead, the result might be slightly different.
I think it is dangerous to say someone's stating is thus and other person's skating is thus from the comparison of just one program. (Do you know Dai said after the World in Nice he couldn't understand the blues even then? )

I either don't understand the meaning of your comparison between Usova/Zhulinand and Dai in the same music.
Even if the performance of Usova/Zhulin is excellent, I don't think every skater who skates to this music should dance like them.

But your comparison of their free programs in this season was interesting. Thank you.

The Accordion
04-08-2012, 09:40 PM
Just watching the NBC coverage and I was reminded of something.

For those saying ridiculous things like Takahashi has to change his name to Chan or skate for Canada - did you remember that Hanyu finished above Takahashi in the freeskate WITH A FALL?

Just sayin'

btw - Have I mentioned that I love all 3 men on the podium? I love them all and look forward to watching them over the next couple years (and for Hanyu much longer I hope!)

Also - back to the original question - Tracy Wilson (who loves him despite her unfortunate circumstance of being a biased and stupid Canadian (!) ) pointed out the snow flying and lack of speed coming out of Takahashi's jumps. So that is one answer from one person to the OP question.

Andora
04-08-2012, 10:06 PM
Just watching the NBC coverage and I was reminded of something.

For those saying ridiculous things like Takahashi has to change his name to Chan or skate for Canada - did you remember that Hanyu finished above Takahashi in the freeskate WITH A FALL?

Just sayin'


I'm watching the same coverage, and you're right. Maybe Takahashi needs to change his name to Hanyu and fall in the footwork. :P

I loved Daisuke's long at the beginning of the year, but those who've said the program wasn't the same here are right. His jumps seemed stronger, but I thought he lost something in the performance slightly due to this. Fair enough though, and he still performed his program better than 99% of the other skaters.

Mevrouw
04-08-2012, 10:12 PM
I was trying to watch the ftwk carefully and saw quite a difference between Chan and Takahashi. I think Dai had only 1 set of turns in the opposite (less comfortable) direction in his SL and no differences in levels/body height and few in knee bend. Chan was constantly changing direction of turns, knee bend and body level, using high and low as well as upright.

In that LP, Dai had quite a few squeaked out landings with no flow and a lot of snow so + GOE wasn't earned. Yes. Patrick had that stupid waxel and lost a combo plus other problems.

It occurred to me that Jeremy Abbott and Patrick have much more in common than either of them have with Daisuke. If Jeremy could get the jumps going, he's the one who'd be Patrick's rival for gold. Both have elegance and amazing smoothness, understated artistry and fantastic skating skills, flow from transition to element and out again throughout the program.

Aren't we lucky to have so many dedicated athletes who work so hard to present their programs in our favourite sport? We should appreciate them all.

The Accordion
04-08-2012, 10:41 PM
Aren't' we lucky to have so many dedicated athletes who work so hard to present their programs in our favourite sport? We should appreciate them all.

^ THIS ^ !

More's the shame that some people can't see what is great in some skaters due to their fandom!

Tanja90
04-08-2012, 10:46 PM
Just watching the NBC coverage and I was reminded of something.

For those saying ridiculous things like Takahashi has to change his name to Chan or skate for Canada - did you remember that Hanyu finished above Takahashi in the freeskate WITH A FALL?

Just sayin'

btw - Have I mentioned that I love all 3 men on the podium? I love them all and look forward to watching them over the next couple years (and for Hanyu much longer I hope!)

Also - back to the original question - Tracy Wilson (who loves him despite her unfortunate circumstance of being a biased and stupid Canadian (!) ) pointed out the snow flying and lack of speed coming out of Takahashi's jumps. So that is one answer from one person to the OP question.

My problem is not on the tecnical score but in the components...I would have given to Takahashi higher components than Chan...Patrick didn't skate well at all last week and obviously he's a great skater and has gorgeous lines and edges but components are not only about skating skills. We have also transitions, coreography, performance and interpretation.
While I must admit Patrick excel in skating skills..I find them equal in transitions and coreoghraphy (but I would say that Takahashi' short was better coreographed than chan's) and in Nice Daisuke was way superior than Chan in performance and Interpretation. But I didn't see that reflected on scores...and judging by all the booing I heard quite a large part of the crowd agreed with me, or at least didn't think that patrick should have been first on the free...But judges don't and after the surreal judgment at the GPF they just confirmed that trend...
I would have given 180 points to Daisuke on the free and on the short I thought that his score was quite right..it was patrick's score which was too high...I would have had him in third behind Brezina and Daisuke.

As for Hanyu...the score doesn't bother me at all! He was incredible...I couldn't stop crying after his free..He has excelent quality in jumps and he is an incredible spinner (better than daisuke and chan), very good transition, his skating skill are good (even if not the best, yet) and the coreoghraphy was not as eleborated as the top two (good Lord, he's 17!!) but he gave the performance of his life and put his soul on the ice! Really deserving high score on performance and Interpretation. He had the third components and the highest technical marks! It was fair!..It's not that his score was too high..it was daisuke's which was too low..

spikydurian
04-08-2012, 11:25 PM
It occurred to me that Jeremy Abbott and Patrick have much more in common than either of them have with Daisuke. If Jeremy could get the jumps going, he's the one who'd be Patrick's rival for gold. Both have elegance and amazing smoothness, understated artistry and fantastic skating skills, flow from transition to element and out again throughout the program.

Aren't we lucky to have so many dedicated athletes who work so hard to present their programs in our favourite sport? We should appreciate them all.

Yes this is all I want to say in response to Tanja09.

I enjoy Dai and Jeremy (and a few others) skating too. If I have a choice, I will have more than 3 medals. Each skater brings a different set of skills and talents. Unfortunately, in reality, our favourite skater/skaters may not win in a particular competition for different reasons. Jeremy is gorgeous skater too but just did not bring it on at Worlds.

allezfred
04-08-2012, 11:26 PM
Skating-wise, he just needs to skate as beautifully as he does now. Politiks-wise, he needs to take some advise from Piseev on how those sekret Alfa Bank wire transfers to the ISU tech panels work (although Piseev's own transfers didn't work as planned after 2012 Euros).

Put a sock in it you stupid bint. :rolleyes:

Dragonlady
04-08-2012, 11:39 PM
More's the shame that some people can't see what is great in some skaters due to their fandom!

I love both skaters. Dai is my favourite male skater at the moment, but I don't think that, even with a great performance, that this program was as well skated as Patrick's. There is just so much more detail in the choreography and in the performance. Dai's performance is more entertaining for some because he's looking into the crowd and engaging the audience.

With Patrick there are so many tiny details to appreciate. As Rock2 pointed out, even his stroking is in time to the music. Every time I watch this skate, I see stuff I missed before. And every time I watch Dai, I think how much better the original choreography was and how I wish he's stuck with it.

Rafter
04-09-2012, 12:36 AM
Everyone has a right to their opinions, but the real problem here is the way that the judging has gone down. There are obviously observers who prefer one stylist to the other, but clearly the audiences as well as many posters here (some with performance degrees and experience) see Daisuke as a much more mature, complete performer. .

Considering Takahashi is what? 5 years older and has MUCH more experience than Chan, is it any really surprise that he is the more mature skater?

Is maturity a criteria in PCS?

Aussie Willy
04-09-2012, 01:08 AM
Patrick didn't skate well at all last week
He won worlds. Boy I am not sure what people expect from him to acknowledge that skated well. :rolleyes: