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genevieve
04-02-2012, 06:50 PM
I know fat doesn't fly, but skating a 4 minute + program requires strength and endurance, it's not ballet or gymnastics.
Because gymnastics and (especially) ballet don't require strength and endurance (you do know that ballets are a lot longer than 4 minutes, right?) :rolleyes:

aliceanne
04-02-2012, 07:50 PM
Because gymnastics and (especially) ballet don't require strength and endurance (you do know that ballets are a lot longer than 4 minutes, right?) :rolleyes:

My point was that skating a long program requires a different type of strength and endurance. My understanding is that ballet and gymnastics are not aerobic activities, while skating is both aerobic and anerobic. Anerobic activities require a different diet and use different muscles.

Ballet dancers and gymnasts try to avoid bulk at all costs, do they not? Skaters can't always afford to avoid a certain amount of bulky muscle. It takes calories to stroke around a 200 foot rink for 4 minutes at top speed. Maybe in the old days skaters could stop and pose or have a prolonged slow section, but not any more.

ioana
04-02-2012, 07:56 PM
Ballet dancers and gymnasts try to avoid bulk at all costs, do they not?

Gymnasts who do AA probably try to limit their muscle bulk in order not to make certain events/skills more dificult. OTOH, if you're purely a vault specialist who really cares if your quads are huge? Better explosive power is a plus. I can think of plenty of gymnasts who are powerful and look muscular. Girls pair skaters are closest to a gymnast's body in skating, really.

ETA: Are you talking about rhythmic gymnastics instead of artistic?

Skittl1321
04-02-2012, 08:00 PM
Ballet dancers and gymnasts try to avoid bulk at all costs, do they not?

Not the men. Male gymnasts are usually solid bulk upper and lower body. If you look at a top male gymnasts arms- they are the definition of bulk in most cases.

Male ballet dancers usually have incredible quads and calves- and upper body like pairs men - STRONG- I recently read a cycling blog about a man who went to see a ballet with his wife, his though was "wow- he's going to need to lose some of that upper body bulk if he ever wants to be a good climber" So clearly, ballet dancers have more upper body strength than cyclists (and similar legs).

I've never thought Adam look fragile. There was a video of him in shorts at nationals, and his legs are solid muscle.

pinky166
04-02-2012, 08:12 PM
Most gymnasts are not that thin honestly. Short and with minimal body fat to be sure, but most elite gymnasts, male and female, appear much stronger and more muscular than the average elite figure skaters. Nastia Liukin was unusually thin for a gymnast, and next to Mao Asada, Pang Tong, Vera Bazarova, etc. I'm sure she'd look much sturdier/stronger. Skaters who have a build more similar to that of an elite gymnast that I can think of off the top of my head would be Joannie Rochette, Ashley Wagner, Amelie Lacoste, Megan Duhamel, Marybeth Marley, and Gracie Gold for the women (Agnes Zawadzki too, although she'd be way taller for a gymnast than she even is for skating) and Keegan Messing, Patrick Chan, Brian Joubert, Kevin Van Der Perren, Rockne Brubaker, and Richard Dornbush for the men. I disagree that a female gymnast would be built most similarly to a pairs skater, the male pairs skaters are maybe built like male gymnasts but taller for the most part, but most pairs girls are so frail looking.

Leeedward
04-02-2012, 09:40 PM
With all of the "What's going with Alissa?", one questions what's going on with the coaching? This coaching stable has gone from getting early, spectacular results from both Alissa & Jeremy to the devastating results these two experienced at this recent World's. Add Adam to the mix & one really wonders what is happening?

P.S. Perhaps they inspire and tweak effectively, but their long-term coaching techniques are not yet fully developed. Even so, they are a young, outstanding coaching team that I hope continues to develop & produce outstanding skaters.

Roxanne
04-02-2012, 10:03 PM
With all of the "What's going with Alissa?", one questions what's going on with the coaching? This coaching stable has gone from getting early, spectacular results from both Alissa & Jeremy to the devastating results these two experienced at this recent World's. Add Adam to the mix & one really wonders what is happening?
Last year they mainly concentrated on Jeremy and Alissa but now they have so many new students. Maybe that messed things up.

jlai
04-03-2012, 04:17 AM
I always get slammed for bringing this up, but Jeremy, Adam, and Alissa all look physically fragile to me. .

Jeremy...when watching 2010 nationals live, it actually struck me, when compared to Evan and Johnny, how relatively more "bulky" he is--at least he is bulkier waist down. Slightly bigger hip and legs than average.
Not that he's not skinny, but he's not super super skinny for a male skater.

Vagabond
04-03-2012, 04:50 AM
I always get slammed for bringing this up, but Jeremy, Adam, and Alissa all look physically fragile to me. I know fat doesn't fly, but skating a 4 minute + program requires strength and endurance, it's not ballet or gymnastics. Maybe if they worked on their off-ice fitness they would do better? The nerves and adrenaline that go with competition can really sap your energy. Also program run throughs throughout the season take a toll on your muscles, especially when you are doing the same program over and over.

I know Meryl and Evan are extremely thin, but whatever diet/fitness regimen they have seems to work for them.

Of course, Evan and Meryl also seem to be internally motivated, while Adam and Alissa always seem to be looking to their coach for reinforcement. Not much you can do about that.



My point was that skating a long program requires a different type of strength and endurance. My understanding is that ballet and gymnastics are not aerobic activities, while skating is both aerobic and anerobic. Anerobic activities require a different diet and use different muscles.

Ballet dancers and gymnasts try to avoid bulk at all costs, do they not? Skaters can't always afford to avoid a certain amount of bulky muscle. It takes calories to stroke around a 200 foot rink for 4 minutes at top speed. Maybe in the old days skaters could stop and pose or have a prolonged slow section, but not any more.

I'm curious. Have you ever seen an elite female gymnast?

Here's a photo of the 2008 United States women's gymnastic team: http://0.tqn.com/d/gymnastics/1/0/t/4/-/-/USTeam08OlyHarryHowGETTY82281166.jpg. It speaks for itself.

For that matter, did you ever see Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, and Surya Bonaly in their prima? Have you ever seen Maé Bérénice Méité?

Alissa Czisny has a different body type from those skaters, but she doesn't look physically fragile to me. (She looks more :grope: if you ask me.) I think you may be confusing her facial expressions with her physique. :shuffle:

Iceman
04-03-2012, 09:14 PM
Neither would give specifics about the training ideas, but in listening to both, it seemed clear Rippon felt he was allowed to peak too early, while Orser thought the skater's ideas about what constituted off-ice training were part of the problem.

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/sports_globetrotting/kim-yuna/

kwanette
04-03-2012, 09:22 PM
I saw Adam last night at FSIH and there was no bronzer, lovely sun glow from Nice. His hair was adorable as was he.

apatinar
04-03-2012, 09:50 PM
I think that when Adam retires and looks back on what surely will be a mediocre career, he will see that leaving Orser was his biggest mistake... All of these Bobeks switching coaches anytime something doesn't quite go right is detrimental to their skating in the long run (there are few exceptions)

arakwafan2006
04-03-2012, 10:50 PM
At what point does a skater just make it work where they are at? It’s like any relationship. Barring a skill deficit or competency issue, there is sometimes not a reason to leave. This truth is amplified if the student possesses in himself the problem at hand.

Doubletoe
04-03-2012, 11:18 PM
At what point does a skater just make it work where they are at? It’s like any relationship.

In other relationships, that's called "settling" . . . unless the person continues to have the exact same issues over and over in each relationship, in which case there is an internal problem that needs to be dealt with. So has Adam had the same problems with Morozov, Orser and Dungjen/Sato? I don't think so. He's a smart kid and I'm sure he's learning something new from each season's mistakes (as Carolina Kostner says she has), so what's wrong with letting him continue figuring out what type of coaching works for him?

winterone
04-04-2012, 01:42 AM
He needs the off ice training Orser wanted him to do, but Adam, I understand, balked at.

Depends that what he needs Depends.