View Full Version : Virtue/Moir #16: You can't blame me for feeling amorous

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04-02-2012, 10:13 PM
You can see their smiles at the end from the stands! Hers especially... seems they are enjoying being world champions again, and I couldn't be happier! Hope they took a few extra days in Nice/Monacco

They will go at Team WCh in 2 weeks, so they need practice again. I think they have rest after FD before exibitions.

04-02-2012, 10:23 PM
You can see their smiles at the end from the stands! Hers especially... seems they are enjoying being world champions again, and I couldn't be happier! Hope they took a few extra days in Nice/Monacco
Oh, Monaco...the kind of place in which one sense that even walking down a street requires a credit card :slinkaway
Pani, you could see Hanyu in person, then? How lucky! His skating was a sublime moment!

04-02-2012, 10:50 PM
Welcome back Pani. It sounds like you had a fantastic time.

04-02-2012, 10:54 PM
What is the idea that Tessa and Scott agreed they didn't deserve to win based on? All I have heard and read is that they acknowledged they thought it was not their best outing for FF, stated right after they finished skating. As winning is relative and they skated after Davis and White, I doubt they had even seen what they were being compared to.

I agree. They are not being assessed according to their own standard of excellence but rather they are being marked in comparison to how the rest of the field skated. I know COP gives the idea that there are absolute standards, but the top skaters are continually pushing the sport and redefining what constitutes excellence and thus deserves top marks. For instance, both D&W and V&M have received GOEs of +3 and marks of 10.0 for PCS categories in their careers, and prior to this season. But both have improved since receiving those scores, IMO, and thus a +3 or a mark of 10.0 that either team received back in 2010 is likely not the same as the +3s or 10.0s they have been receiving this season, even though they appear the same on paper.

I think both teams skated very well, and neither team skated to the best of their abilities...unfortunately D&W's issues occurred on an element that V&M performed very well, the diagonal step sequence. The judges may not have seen the bobbles or thought they were significant enough to mark V&M so far below D&W in PCS that the result would be any different, especially when D&W arguably didn't have their best skate in terms of edge quality throughout their program. PCS has a lot of criteria, and the judges have a hard time choosing between two incredibly talented teams. I am not sure why a V&M win in PCS is so outrageous, especially when we take into consideration the improvements they have made and the fact that this is a different panel of judges than GPF and 4CC.

I will now follow this post with a lengthier explanation, in response to some of the 'justification' I have seen for this win being due to the fact that V&M are the judges' charity cases.

04-02-2012, 11:07 PM
Please pardon my long-windedness; being clear and concise has never been my forte. This post is also a reflection of my frustration at some of what I have read about this victory (and this is not to say that being puzzled about and questioning the result or thinking D&W should have won is absurd, as D&W are supremely talented and skated really well here). I tried to underline the key points.

I want to explore this argument further and point out why those now infamous quotes are not akin to admission of an undeserved victory, and do not prove that V&M should not have won, imo. I’ll try to lay out and respond to the key components of this argument as I understand them:

I know this is debateable, but I feel that these teams are closely matched in terms of ability (though in general, I still give V&M the edge in PCS, namely for skating skills and interpretation/timing, but I won’t get into that further here). It follows that if these teams are equals, one team will have to skate their best in order to beat the other team at their best. It also seems logical that the margin of victory should be very small (seems being the operative word—more on this later). V&M admitted it was not their best skate (post-win interview, as well as the press conference), and many felt that D&W were at their best. So it makes sense that D&W should win. But IMO, D&W weren’t at their best. Their edges weren’t as deep as I have seen them, especially in the footwork sequences. It is also worth noting that they, like Tessa and Scott, had difficulty with the first part of their sequential twizzles, but were awarded maximum GOEs by 5 of the 9 judges, while Tessa and Scott received only one GOE of +3, with one +1 and the rest +2s. Thus, D&W ‘won’ that element. I am not arguing with the fact they won it, I am merely pointing out that with similar mistakes on the same element, the judges chose to give the edge to D&W. This is evidence to me that the judges weren’t out to get D&W.

D&W were beating V&M on PCS all season in the FD, so some people are wondering why things would/should be any different here. After all, in their post-win interview, Tessa herself conceded that “this might not have been [their] best skate,” (and I will point out here that she didn’t indicate if she meant it was not—or might not have been--their best competition skate this season, or if she meant that they had skated it better in practice), and that “it just didn’t come as naturally as it has in the past or as easy as it has felt in training at home,” (DiManno, The Toronto Star). And Scott admitted that they “had to fight a little bit more for the program than maybe a fairytale performance would have been” (DiManno, The Toronto Star) and they both admitted to a couple of bobbles. I also want to point out that Scott is comparing their skate to an ideal performance, and saying that they had to fight for this skate—he is not saying that they struggled through it. This is a subtle but important difference. D&W felt that they gave their best performance of the season (Golden Skate article).

The “bobbles” V&M had did not occur on elements AFAIK, with the exception of an edge problem on the CiSt which was consequently assessed a level 3. The footwork was still performed well, and was tied with that of D&W, who also performed their step sequence well. In the ‘deciding element,’ the diagonal footwork sequence, V&M noticeably had deeper edges and cleaner turns, imo, which affected both the level and the GOEs (which were very similar for both teams—mostly +2s for V&M with the exception of two +3s and mostly +2s for D&W with the exception of two +1s and one +3). I thought that the sureness and depth of edge, the relaxedness of hold, and the ease and fluidity of movement made V&M’s step sequence superior in this instance (though I still thought D&W’s step sequence was strong, and the judges’ marks indicate that they did, as well). More specifically, I think their LFO could have been deeper just past the midway point of the sequence, as well as Meryl's RFI at the end, just before she changes to the LBO. I would have awarded V&M with a GOE one grade higher than that of D&W on this element. Anyways, this resulted in a 1.78 advantage for V&M in the scores.

I thought both teams produced their best performances of the season in terms of emotional engagement and it is difficult to choose who interpreted their program better. I slightly prefer V&M for their more nuanced interpretation of the music, and fuller use of their bodies in that interpretation. Where I gave D&W the edge was in projection—to me, they had the most energy and thus the strongest connection to the audience (I realize it can be said that this was because their music was more audience-friendly, but I think it is their energy and how beautifully they interpret the music that makes this program so popular). This is important in the P/E mark, but is not the only thing the judges are looking for in either P/E or PCS overall. There is also carriage, unison, closeness or “spatial awareness between partners,” etc. to consider in this category, and V&M could reasonably have picked up points in these areas, especially the last one. D&W and V&M tied in this category.

With the rest of the PCS, I think it is very close between these two couples. Both have great skating skills, but I would give V&M a slight edge in this category because of how well they used their edges throughout the program (they are rarely on flats, and have a very clean running edge with soft, rhythmic knees, all of which were on display in this performance). And while I think D&W have better acceleration and power, V&M have a more varied use of speed and power. V&M added transitions to their program, taking out some of the stops that they had been marked down for previously. This, imo, gave them the edge in transitions. They had slightly more transitional moves from what I saw, and these moves were difficult and performed smoothly, though again, I would keep the teams close (and indeed the judges did).

For those bobbles to be meaningful in the scores and overall result, one would have to show that those bobbles interrupted the program enough to justify a PCS that was lower than what V&M received, enough so to offset the TES advantage and the SD lead (though I do realize that the validity of both the SD lead and the TES advantage are being debated, but again, I want to know why they are invalid). I think some of the skating skills and transitions scores should have been lower because of the bobbles, as a stumble or loss of balance should be a -0.5 in SS (which would make the two 9.75s V&M received impossible). I haven't seen anything about a deduction for stumbles in TR, but it would make sense that if the stumble occurred on a transitional move that this aspect of the marks should suffer). I would have had them at a 9.5 for LF/M and 9.25 or 9.5 for SS (and D&W at a 9.25 for LF/M and a 9.00 or 9.25 for SS--only 0.25 below V&M). Perhaps I would have tied them. tough call. It comes down to edges and how smooth the transitions were. Thankfully, the two 9.75s in each category didn't affect the final scores too much, even though the categories they occurred in carry the greatest factors. Figure skating is inherently subjective, and these teams are so closely matched that I understand why this result is debateable. But because of these things, I don’t see why a V&M victory here that isn’t due to corruption/politics/reputation is an impossibility for some. And I am addressing both TES (which V&M won in their previous matchups) and PCS here. For one, each panel is different and will value each of the requirements for both TES and PCS differently. They also do not share the same perception of what they are actually seeing on the ice. Also, while I do think V&M perhaps had more abandon and energy at the GPF, there were also things they improved on since that time. They not only changed their program to add more transitions; they also settled into those changes here and interpreted the program better than they have all season, imo. Some judges may have felt that those added transitions also better captured the feel of the music and helped V&M convey the theme better, thus affecting other areas of the PCS. The point I am making here is that V&M didn't skate at the same PCS level they did when they were defeated at the GPF (and even at that event, they only lost the PCS by a small margin). Of course, D&W also improved (leg line, unison, connection with the music), and the judges have to compare the teams based on what they did in the FD at this event and choose a winner. Again, I want to stress here that even if people felt that D&W improved more, that doesn't mean they should automatically win the PCS as a different set of judges may not have awarded them the PCS at 4CC, for example. The teams are that close.

I think one of the main issues people have is with the seemingly large margin of victory. The thing is, if a judge sees one team as even slightly better than the other, enough to warrant a difference in the scores, that difference has a minimum value of 1 in the GOEs, since they can only use integers there (and this is multiplied by the base value of the element), and a minimum difference of 0.25 in the PCS (though this value is actually higher for SS and TR/LF as they carry respective factors of 1.25 and 1.75). As the judges scores are averaged, if more judges see a slight difference between the teams with most of them agreeing on which team is better, the margin of victory is bigger. The scores are often so close likely because the judges are split on who won that element or PCS category, with some awarding it to one team and others awarding it to the other. That averages out and we only get a small difference between the two teams. The judges did not collectively agree that V&M were 1.33 better in the SD and 2.7 better in the FD here. They mark independently of each other. But enough saw a slight difference between them, and enough sided with V&M, for it to show up in the scores.

Thank you for letting me get that out.

04-02-2012, 11:16 PM
Maxim Trankov posted a picture of him, Amodio, and Scott in the dressing room:


04-02-2012, 11:19 PM
You could very well be right. My memory really isn't what it used to be. I thought they skated it all season but didn't skate it as well as they would have liked because Shae was experiencing some sort of physical ailment.

If anyone remembers how that went ...

Yes, she was still recovering from meniscus problems with her knees...knees take a long time to heal (of they ever do, that is). That program was sooooo difficult! and a departure from their previous work (which was also varied, imo).

I would love to see more techno programs in ice dance today, if for no other reason variety.

The Accordion
04-02-2012, 11:34 PM

BK Meet Me at the Love Parade (Heart Attack) at Skate Canada

04-02-2012, 11:46 PM

BK Meet Me at the Love Parade (Heart Attack) at Skate Canada

This may be my favorite program of theirs ever... :cool:

04-02-2012, 11:58 PM
I'm not a fan of V/M doing techno - IMO they would lose the crowd. But I love the idea of them doing a ballet for the Olympics in front of a Russian crowd!!! I've always had the impression that they are popular in Russia because Russians fans consider them worthy successors to the Russian ice dance legacy. :)

04-03-2012, 12:11 AM
I've said this before, but I want Kurt to hook them up with a tragically hip piece written especially for them like this masterpiece of a program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tcy--wXe5w

04-03-2012, 01:09 AM
detroit fluff


Parsley Sage
04-03-2012, 01:20 AM
You could very well be right. My memory really isn't what it used to be. I thought they skated it all season but didn't skate it as well as they would have liked because Shae was experiencing some sort of physical ailment.

If anyone remembers how that went ...

I think Shae was starting to have pain at the 1999 Canadian championships.

04-03-2012, 02:31 AM
I actually think "Hoppipolla" might be too similar to Mahler (I know, but stay with me for a second) for them to do as a FD. It's very spacious music, with ethereal qualities that would empahsize grace and elegance. Hell, the costumes would have to be lightly coloured (white/light greys/blues/lilacs). No, I think it would be great for a gala. The lights off with only a spotlight on them; a rotational lift to match the crashing climax, their remarkable unison and peerless connection doing it all.

04-03-2012, 02:45 AM
I always say that I want them to do something like this: http://youtu.be/28tZ-S1LFok.

But my impossible dream is for them to do this: http://soundcloud.com/kaninerecords/braids-lemonade.