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View Full Version : Virtue/Moir #16: You can't blame me for feeling amorous



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Zazy
04-20-2012, 09:28 PM
Don't take this the wrong way, but I have feel like excuses are being made for him. Yes he whispered it, but we still heard what he said and even if the other skaters felt that way they didn't say it aloud. And it is offensive to the organizers though I'm sure he didn't mean the whole event, just that particular moment, but still it came across that way to me. You're also right that there probably is a double standards compared to others, but that doesn't make what those people said right either.

Fans will defend their favourites, it's what we do. A lot of the people crucifying Scott would be defending the same behaviour in their favourites.

I don't think anyone is saying what Scott said is perfectly fine, just that it's being blown out of proportion. It looks like an unfortunate case of thinking aloud and really, there's nothing wrong with hating WTT, it's saying it out loud that's the problem. I feel like, in general, it's easy for us to sit at our computers and judge everything these people say or do in public. I know I'm glad I don't have people on message boards commenting on my not-so-great moments. Yes, it's part of being in the public eye, but we really don't know the skaters in any real way or what's going on in their lives. One or two comments doesn't define a person.

euterpe
04-20-2012, 09:34 PM
The tech team for this event were Leaver (USA), Bowness (CAN) and McDonald (AUS).

Since the TC (Leaver) doesn't have a vote unless there is a disagreement between the two TSs, I doubt there was anything wrong with Charlie's twizzles. If anything, the two TSs might have been more favorable to V/M than to D/W.

BTW, I thought V/M didn't go all out with their FD as they did at Worlds. Their twizzles were better, but everything else was just a bit subdued. And their last lift was a little awkward.

OTOH, D/W performed to the hilt and it was by far their best performance of the FD this year. Too bad they peaked too late.

Bournekraatzfan
04-20-2012, 09:35 PM
I mean in rotational lift (Belbin lift) Meryl didnt have corner 180 degrees between her feets, so this could cost them level (they could have level 3).
At the begining of the season I-K had this problem and they never recived level 4 for this lift.

good eye--I didn't catch that. okay, I see what you are saying. That would drop them down to a 3.5 base value, which is significant. good point.

euterpe
04-20-2012, 09:37 PM
One or two comments doesn't define a person.

It's just that Scott has emerged this season as a person who has a habit of firmly inserting his foot in his mouth. Because of that, his behavior in the KnC is subjected to much greater scrutiny.

What makes his comment unfortunate is that he is the Skate Canada team captain, so it leaves the impression that he is speaking for the team.

martyross
04-20-2012, 09:43 PM
And as I said in another thread, it's a cheesefest when your favorites don't win, but a worthwhile competition when they do...

i replied to this. you're assuming about how fans feel.
i just don't like keep reading this when it's not true for me. i mean, DW fans had their moment of satisfaction today, great, then there's no need to be condescending toward TS fans.

pani
04-20-2012, 09:52 PM
The tech team for this event were Leaver (USA), Bowness (CAN) and McDonald (AUS).

Since the TC (Leaver) doesn't have a vote unless there is a disagreement between the two TSs, I doubt there was anything wrong with Charlie's twizzles. If anything, the two TSs might have been more favorable to V/M than to D/W.

BTW, I thought V/M didn't go all out with their FD as they did at Worlds. Their twizzles were better, but everything else was just a bit subdued. And their last lift was a little awkward.

OTOH, D/W performed to the hilt and it was by far their best performance of the FD this year. Too bad they peaked too late.

Twizzles were good at WCh and WTT, spin were better at WTT, step sequences... OK, first one is perfection and if at WTT it get only level 3, when at WCh - level 4? so maybe it was better at WCh, second SS were better at WTT for sure- more close posotons and level 4 for it.
Two last liftes maybe were not so great, like at WCh, but last were OK. And i think first lift wasnt so bad, like GOE for it :D
About D-W i post my point before. No way 9.96 in components and some little stubles could have a big weight in this competition.

pani
04-20-2012, 09:53 PM
i replied to this. you're assuming about how fans feel.
i just don't like keep reading this when it's not true for me. i mean, DW fans had their moment of satisfaction today, great, then there's no need to be condescending toward TS fans.

Dont pay attention. Who care? I dont think TV, Japon FS federation, SC will pay attention to this.

Bournekraatzfan
04-20-2012, 09:53 PM
The tech team for this event were Leaver (USA), Bowness (CAN) and McDonald (AUS).

Since the TC (Leaver) doesn't have a vote unless there is a disagreement between the two TSs, I doubt there was anything wrong with Charlie's twizzles. If anything, the two TSs might have been more favorable to V/M than to D/W.

BTW, I thought V/M didn't go all out with their FD as they did at Worlds. Their twizzles were better, but everything else was just a bit subdued. And their last lift was a little awkward.

OTOH, D/W performed to the hilt and it was by far their best performance of the FD this year. Too bad they peaked too late.

I amended my original post to account for the possibility of a GOE of +2 instead of +3 for that lift. In that case, V&M would lose the FD even if D&W had a level 3 on the twizzles. Even in the scenario that V&M won the FD, it still wouldn't offset the advantage D&W had in the SD. I am not claiming that V&M should have won the whole thing, and I am fine with the FD result, if not the margin of victory. I only posted hypotheticals to account for errors that could have been missed (and the error on Charlie's twizzle is evident, even in real time, and they should not have received +3s for GOE). As I mentioned, I still gave D&W higher GOE (total) and higher PCS (they were magical last night). And again, it doesn't matter because the margin of victory in the FD for V&M would be so small that it wouldn't offset D&W's SD lead. I posted yesterday about why D&W deserve the lead in the SD.

martyross
04-20-2012, 09:56 PM
Dont pay attention. Who care? I dont think TV, Japon FS federation, SC will pay attention to this.
to what Yazmeen said? :P

ddtpdx
04-20-2012, 09:57 PM
I actually misread the protocols, because for some reason I thought D&W received GOEs of +2, so I thought the judges did mark them down for the last part of that twizzle (though not enough). However, you are right, 6 of the 9 judges awarded them GOEs of +3, and I don't know how/why. And upon closer inspection, I wonder if they might have been lucky to have been assessed a level 4 on those twizzles, as it looked like Charlie's twizzle turned into a three turn for what should have been the last of the four rotations required in that section, which would have cost them a level and therefore dropped their base level to a 5.00 for that element. Then, when you consider a GOE of +1, and convert using the Scale of Values, that comes out to a 0.5 in GOE. This means that element should have received 5.5 points (if assessed a level 3) or 6.5 points (if assessed a level 4), and it instead received 7.36 points. V&M's twizzles were excellent and I thought they should have received +3s for them, which only 4 of the judges gave them. The rest were +2s and a +1 (which was discarded). V&M only received 7.21 for this element, when I think they should have won it. If they received all +3s, they would have had 7.5 on this element.


Are you really surprised? The judges seem to love D&W's twizzles, even when they are not performed in unison (which is most of the time when you slow them down to frame by frame - prime example is the SD at WTT where both sets of twizzles were out of unison - which was obvious to me even without slowing it down, yet they got GOE of +2 for all judges except one who gave them +3). Sometimes I wonder whether they even bother to use their slo-mo cameras to assess D&W's twizzles. You do have to give D&W credit though for picking positions that don't highlight unison issues vs V&M, whose arm positions often reveal any unison problem without need for slo-mo assessment.

Bournekraatzfan
04-20-2012, 10:12 PM
Are you really surprised? The judges seem to love D&W's twizzles, even when they are not performed in unison (which is most of the time when you slow them down to frame by frame - prime example is the SD at WTT where both sets of twizzles were out of unison - which was obvious to me even without slowing it down, yet they got GOE of +2 for all judges except one who gave them +3). Sometimes I wonder whether they even bother to use their slo-mo cameras to assess D&W's twizzles. You do have to give D&W credit though for picking positions that don't highlight unison issues vs V&M, whose arm positions often reveal any unison problem without need for slo-mo assessment.

Good point, those positions are key. On a good day, both teams are capable of getting +3s on that element (not just from a few judges but from most). But I tend to agree that unison breaks in D&W's twizzles are sometimes not reflected in the marks (at the Worlds FD 5 judges gave them +3, for example). I agree, this is due to the quickness of their rotation. but they didn't receive +3s in the SD for this element, so I am guessing that the judges maybe caught it and still thought the twizzle was strong enough for a +2?

pani
04-20-2012, 10:12 PM
to what Yazmeen said? :P

Yes :D

ddtpdx, Bournekraatzfan judges notice something, when they want to notice this. Like i said before, they didnt gave I-K level 4 for lift without 180 degree between feets, they didnt gave them even level 4 in twizzles, when Elena had a little problems in last rotation. So when someone try to explane one one team go ahead of another team its unnesessary, because another team have mistakes too, but judges didnt want to see this :rolleyes:
They didnt watch element in slow motions, when all agree with the level was done. So D-W twizzles so fast, that judges couldnt see this mistakes without slow motions.
Then again - for me V-M must get on 5 points more in step sequences (overall) compare to D-W. But they get less points.
I think all agree this difference in FD isnt real?
As for SD - its again the question is - could D-W have the same PCS in latin dance with V-M? Could big, smooth V-M rhumba had less points&
We are happy at WCh judges understand something in ice dance ;)

But i agree with m_chenning - in future V-M need programs, wich show they are the best for all - for real specialists and for people, who try to play in game "i will be a judge". :) If they will have something like this we will have nothing to discuss :P

jl22aries
04-20-2012, 10:14 PM
Dont worry - in next season Canada will have cheesefest in London :D

As for music. Look at this - ballet on Radiohead music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvMANGrvJI0

Oh my Pani...I was literally thinking about Radiohead for VM and how/if it would work. Radiohead is my all time favourite band in the entire universe. But would it work? With the Z/S range of movement? I'll just imagine a team, any team, skating to Radiohead.

Bournekraatzfan
04-20-2012, 10:15 PM
O, FF look great "live" and the fly across the ice again.
But yes, i will wait what will be next and hope this will be something modern and i love new FD :D

Look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo-M8Wx6g_g&feature=endscreen

I am so jealous that you got to see FF live, especially with that exquisite diagonal.

and I really like this. I remember we were discussing this a couple of weeks ago, how V&M can expand their vocabulary of movement and do something really out there. I wonder how that will go over with the judges, though.

bmcg
04-20-2012, 10:16 PM
The tech team for this event were Leaver (USA), Bowness (CAN) and McDonald (AUS).

Since the TC (Leaver) doesn't have a vote unless there is a disagreement between the two TSs, I doubt there was anything wrong with Charlie's twizzles. If anything, the two TSs might have been more favorable to V/M than to D/W.

BTW, I thought V/M didn't go all out with their FD as they did at Worlds. Their twizzles were better, but everything else was just a bit subdued. And their last lift was a little awkward.

OTOH, D/W performed to the hilt and it was by far their best performance of the FD this year. Too bad they peaked too late.

Read :
http://www2.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/page/custom/0,8510,4844-152094-169310-31825-132302-custom-item,00.html

The Technical Panel is composed of the Technical Controller, the Technical Specialist and the Assistant Technical Specialist, each one from different ISU Members (countries). A Data Operator assists them for recording purposes. An instantaneous slow-motion video replay system operated by a Replay Operator supports the Technical Panel in the identification of the performed elements.
- The Technical Specialist, assisted by the Assistant Technical Specialist, identifies and calls the performed elements and the specific Levels of Difficulty of certain performed elements (e.g. Spins, Footwork,). He/She identifies illegal or additional elements, identifies falls and adds, if applicable, innovative elements.
- The Technical Controller authorizes or corrects all calls, supervises the Data Operator and can propose corrections, if necessary.

The TC is more than a tie-breaking vote.
I don't have an issue with the panel and I don't care much about this event. Just correcting the assumption the TC does less then the TS.




Are you really surprised? The judges seem to love D&W's twizzles, even when they are not performed in unison (which is most of the time when you slow them down to frame by frame - prime example is the SD at WTT where both sets of twizzles were out of unison - which was obvious to me even without slowing it down, yet they got GOE of +2 for all judges except one who gave them +3). Sometimes I wonder whether they even bother to use their slo-mo cameras to assess D&W's twizzles. You do have to give D&W credit though for picking positions that don't highlight unison issues vs V&M, whose arm positions often reveal any unison problem without need for slo-mo assessment.

There is a limit to what the judges can review so they probably choose to view something else.