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Bournekraatzfan
04-05-2012, 07:16 AM
I'm probably going to get fussed at for this but....:shuffle:

For all the talk I've seen in the past about the need for younger judges because the current ones don't understand or purposely ignore this or that depending on who they want to win, it seems that many fans, skaters and coaches don't understand CoP either. Or like martyross, I'm going bonkers. Maybe CoP has changed and I'm the one who does not understand.

I guess that's why outside of Europe and Russia icedancing will never be as popular as the three other disciplines. Well it's more popular in Canada than the U.S. but anyway...

From what I've seen (youtube) and read (PBP) D&W were eye clean; fast exciting (to many) and seemed to have the cleaner program. However, did not D&W lose points at least in part because of negative GOE's? What they did didn't appear to have mistakes but the skating skills and the execution of those skills were deemed not as good as V&M's. The crowds don't seem to understand that and Marina for whatever reason doesn't seem to either. I guess V&M's bobbles (one was barely noticeable) are something more tangible that people can pick up on. V&M may have GOE points because of those small errors but with the high level of everything else they have done they picked up points everywhere else.

I keep thinking back to Sasha Cohen's silver medal win in Torino. All people focused on was that Sasha fell twice. Yes, she did fall but again once she got past those two falls, she probably picked up points for everything else she did.

Programs skated under CoP are (or were) supposed to be broken down into segments with the required elements having a starting value based on the difficulty of the footwork sequences or lifts, spins or what have you. Then points are added or subtracted depending on how well those things are executed. Or has that changed or it never was marked that way?

Every few years, the judges seem to change what it is they look for, what they reward in icedance. It seems many of the new generation of dance fans are the same way. They don't appreciate the subtleties in icedance, everything has to be laid out in front of them. As long as a program is exciting and the music is a huge booming piece then nothing else matters.

All season people were saying that no one (particularly V&M fans) should get upset because D&W and V&M were a great rivalry and very close. It could go either way. When V&M were coming up second that was the mantra; all of a sudden when V&M get a (deserved IMHO) win, we get people suggesting that they were gifted and coming up with articles where people are speaking out against them.

It's a shame because being as old as I am, I remember a time when the qualities V&M possess were prized and considered a requirement in icedancing.

Scott's admission of his mistake doesn't mean that V&M did not deserve to win.

Also, I also liked Funny Face from the first time I saw it and by the end of the season I loved it. IMO it may not be "artistic" or "creative" in the way FD's of past competitiors such as DelShoes, D&L and DenStavs were but I feel it's a step in the right direction. I suppose I'm one of the few who is tired of connect the elements programs. I'd like V&M to continue with trying something that's not completely generic; to move back in the direction of Pink Floyd.

I hope the fact that V&M won with Funny Face and P&B (who have the most interesting choreography in the field) finally win their bronze with the Mummy program means that more creative (and I'm not talking about OTT, overly voidy programs) FD's will be encouraged.

great post!

I also find the inconceivability of V&M's win puzzling, since it is coming from the same fans who have made a point of telling those of us in this thread how close the teams are in skill (and though I still give V&M the edge, I agree that they are close). Panels have been undecided all season, with D&W winning the PCS by small margins (meaning more judges sided with them than with V&M). At this event, more judges happened to side with V&M in PCS. Yet talk that ‘the fix was in’ started after the SD, when Tessa and Scott did not have a visible error, and skated really well.

As others have pointed out, this is something that is tricky in ice dance, as things that cost you in the scores aren't always noticeable to the audience. In this situation, I think people are more likely to notice a stumble than when skaters don’t hit their edges.

I also think a lot of people are upset/puzzled by the fact that they don’t see V&M's bobbles reflected in the scores, and that’s fair. Just going to repeat something I said earlier cuz it fits here. As the stumble was not on an element, it would not affect the GOES and thus, their TES would remain the same. But Scott's stumble in the FD should have resulted in a (mandatory) 0.5 deduction in the SS (making the two 9.75s they received impossible) and, though not mandatory, one might argue that the LF/M scores should be affected because this occurred on a transitional move (so let’s take another 0.25 off there). Even those, when multiplied by their respective factors of 1.25 and 1.75 translate to a score that is 1.07 less than what it was (and this is assuming that all judges did not see or deduct for the stumble). Sure, it is possible that the judges chose to ignore the stumble. But based on what pani has told us, it is also possible, even likely, that they in fact did not see it. Maybe some did and adjusted their marks accordingly…I guess we will never know. Either way, it is frustrating for fans when mistakes are not accounted for in the marks, but it (the stumble being accounted for in the marks, that is) would not have affected the results of the FD.

Where V&M executed their diagonal step sequence extremely well and earned a level 4, making this element worth a minimum of 8.00 points, D&W’s ‘mistake’ (not hitting their edges) occurred on this element, costing them a level and thus bring their base value down to 6.5. This likely also resulted in the two +1s they received in GOEs for that element (one of which was thrown out, one of which counted). So in addition to having a lower base value, they also had slightly less (the mean GOE) added to their base value. As walei and many others have pointed out, there’s most of the margin (1.78 of their 2.7 margin of victory in the FD).

Correction: I wrote my previous posts on little sleep and I realize that I mistakenly wrote that the GOE (the mean, that is, once the highest and lowest scores are thrown out and once they are converted with the scale of values) was ‘multiplied by the base value.’ I meant to say ‘added to the base value’ and got it mixed up when I was writing because I was thinking of the PCS. My bad.

Bournekraatzfan
04-05-2012, 07:23 AM
No, she did not say that.




Meryl Davis and Charlie White were perfect in their programme tonight and did everything as best as they could on 100%. Another words, they had clean skating .- said Igor Shpilband. But Tessa had some minor mistakes in transitions from one element to another .- added Marina Zueva. But we should bear in mind that she had 4 seasons with ill legs, both legs, so, you can't even imagine how difficult for her to skate all this time. And it's good that now they could feel the taste of the victory, something slightly forgotten for them.
--
Sorry for my english.

Thanks for translating, mchenning.
Tessa's bobble on the transition, AFAIK, was not a stumble/loss of balance, so it is arguably not even quantifiable in the scores.

Emdee
04-05-2012, 10:56 AM
I am with Walei....

I didnt say it before because I didnt want to be uncharitable but since Marina and Igor have said it I will now.

Davis and White skated their best ever but it was not good enough for Scott & Tessa's second best. That is because overall Tessa and Scotts holds, edgework, skating skills, details and pure dance elements elegantly performed were judged better than D&W and consequently more rewarded than D&W.

Lets move on now.

Looking forward to world team trophy - is the schedule out?

pani
04-05-2012, 11:47 AM
Sorry, but coaches said if they were the judges they will give gold to D-W - this is fact. This was there words. And Zueva said about Tessas mistakes - wasnt this Scott who made mistake? And this words wasnt take from context.
When girls met Zueva and congrats her with T-S win, she said: "Yes, but i feel said Meryl and Charlie didnt win". So this is facts.

nlyoung
04-05-2012, 12:13 PM
Sorry, but coaches said if they were the judges they will give gold to D-W - this is fact. This was there words. And Zueva said about Tessas mistakes - wasnt this Scott who made mistake? And this words wasnt take from context.
When girls met Zueva and congrats her with T-S win, she said: "Yes, but i feel said Meryl and Charlie didnt win". So this is facts.

Keep in mind also that Tessa and Scott received a prize (gold) for their performance so don't need the extra support. Igor and Marina have to be sure they don't appear to be playing favorites and need to give Meryl and Charlie what they need - a "virtual gold" as it were. Had Meryl and Charlie won I'm sure they would have been talking more about how well Tessa and Scott skated. Both teams need to be kept happy and comfortable with the idea that their coaches will support them 100%. Tessa and Scott didn't need the support this time, and the truth is, given they did make bobbles, which Igor and Marina would surely have also noticed, how could V/M be offended that their coaches acknowledge their less than stellar (by their standards) performance.

pani
04-05-2012, 12:27 PM
It was understanding from K&C how coaches were happy with T-S second WCh gold :D
Whe at last year WCh T-S were in 1000 time best crowd favortes, did Z-Sh said how good they were? Now, they were in the sky, because of D-W gold.
Sorry, but how coaches could sitting with such faces after there skaters won gold?
Z-Sh didnt like V-M won gold, so let them be free and coaches could working only with ice dance ideal D-W, what a problem?
O they think they need keep them to not let them win gold anymore?

clarie
04-05-2012, 01:19 PM
I am with Walei....

I didnt say it before because I didnt want to be uncharitable but since Marina and Igor have said it I will now.

Davis and White skated their best ever but it was not good enough for Scott & Tessa's second best. That is because overall Tessa and Scotts holds, edgework, skating skills, details and pure dance elements elegantly performed were judged better than D&W and consequently more rewarded than D&W.

Lets move on now.

Looking forward to world team trophy - is the schedule out?

I agree. Let's move on and it might be more fun to talk about music choices or something more positive.

pani
04-05-2012, 01:39 PM
http://funkyimg.com/u2/1527/823/9021175.jpg
This two look like movie stars. :)

Emdee
04-05-2012, 01:40 PM
I know I said lets move on.... but

I read somewhere that among other factors T&S may feel that if they move on Z&S will put their whole support behind D&W. Maybe they feel they cannot afford this to happen and their staying is strategic as well. If they stay it allows them to keep tabs on their rivals as well - keep your friends close but your enemies ( competitors) closer kind of thing!

pani
04-05-2012, 02:15 PM
I know I said lets move on.... but

I read somewhere that among other factors T&S may feel that if they move on Z&S will put their whole support behind D&W. Maybe they feel they cannot afford this to happen and their staying is strategic as well. If they stay it allows them to keep tabs on their rivals as well - keep your friends close but your enemies ( competitors) closer kind of thing!

Maybe you are right. And Krylova said she have 14 teams now - its too much :D
But i hope T-S not just will show, how Marina see them, but will try to show there other sides. I hope for the next season SC will be more carefull and will check Z-Sh work during summer and at High Perfomacne Camp.
I hope Tracy, Kurt will give them some good advices for next season.

Ans as for new exibition. You know, i think it look better in practice.

http://hotbladeshotpassion.blogspot.com/2012/04/world-team-trophy-schedule.html
World Team Trophy - SCHEDULE

Emdee
04-05-2012, 03:51 PM
The good news is .... as WC they will now be first in the practices.

pani
04-05-2012, 04:05 PM
The good news is .... as WC they will now be first in the practices.

First in practies? Why?

twinktwink
04-05-2012, 04:31 PM
First in practies? Why?


Earlier in the season there was an interview where Marina was talking about the order of all the teams' music on the cd they use for training in Canton. That D/W's music was first because they were the new World Champions and that Scott wanted it that way because it would motivate him to win World's because he wanted to have their music first on the cd again. It was all to do with how they were going to work out the order because of V/M being Olympic champions and D/W World champions.

So now that V/M are World champions again their music will be first on the cd this year when it comes to training. :)

twinktwink
04-05-2012, 04:42 PM
I'm probably going to get fussed at for this but....:shuffle:

For all the talk I've seen in the past about the need for younger judges because the current ones don't understand or purposely ignore this or that depending on who they want to win, it seems that many fans, skaters and coaches don't understand CoP either. Or like martyross, I'm going bonkers. Maybe CoP has changed and I'm the one who does not understand.

I guess that's why outside of Europe and Russia icedancing will never be as popular as the three other disciplines. Well it's more popular in Canada than the U.S. but anyway...

From what I've seen (youtube) and read (PBP) D&W were eye clean; fast exciting (to many) and seemed to have the cleaner program. However, did not D&W lose points at least in part because of negative GOE's? What they did didn't appear to have mistakes but the skating skills and the execution of those skills were deemed not as good as V&M's. The crowds don't seem to understand that and Marina for whatever reason doesn't seem to either. I guess V&M's bobbles (one was barely noticeable) are something more tangible that people can pick up on. V&M may have GOE points because of those small errors but with the high level of everything else they have done they picked up points everywhere else.

I keep thinking back to Sasha Cohen's silver medal win in Torino. All people focused on was that Sasha fell twice. Yes, she did fall but again once she got past those two falls, she probably picked up points for everything else she did.

Programs skated under CoP are (or were) supposed to be broken down into segments with the required elements having a starting value based on the difficulty of the footwork sequences or lifts, spins or what have you. Then points are added or subtracted depending on how well those things are executed. Or has that changed or it never was marked that way?

Every few years, the judges seem to change what it is they look for, what they reward in icedance. It seems many of the new generation of dance fans are the same way. They don't appreciate the subtleties in icedance, everything has to be laid out in front of them. As long as a program is exciting and the music is a huge booming piece then nothing else matters.

All season people were saying that no one (particularly V&M fans) should get upset because D&W and V&M were a great rivalry and very close. It could go either way. When V&M were coming up second that was the mantra; all of a sudden when V&M get a (deserved IMHO) win, we get people suggesting that they were gifted and coming up with articles where people are speaking out against them.

It's a shame because being as old as I am, I remember a time when the qualities V&M possess were prized and considered a requirement in icedancing.

Scott's admission of his mistake doesn't mean that V&M did not deserve to win.

Also, I also liked Funny Face from the first time I saw it and by the end of the season I loved it. IMO it may not be "artistic" or "creative" in the way FD's of past competitiors such as DelShoes, D&L and DenStavs were but I feel it's a step in the right direction. I suppose I'm one of the few who is tired of connect the elements programs. I'd like V&M to continue with trying something that's not completely generic; to move back in the direction of Pink Floyd.

I hope the fact that V&M won with Funny Face and P&B (who have the most interesting choreography in the field) finally win their bronze with the Mummy program means that more creative (and I'm not talking about OTT, overly voidy programs) FD's will be encouraged.


ITA with everything you've said here, great post! :)

I'd also like to add that for me I find all the fuss about the performances even more :confused: because even if V/M had ended up scoring closer to D/W they still would have won the whole thing because they WON the SD. In all the fuss that seems to have been forgotten. They already had a point cushion so even if they had only scored a 107 they would be World Champions. They performed a few elements better and that's where the scores come from. D/W didn't max out their levels and its as simple as that, its a legitimate reason to not get extra marks. The way that some people have reacted to the scores and the result is as if its still the 6.0 scoring mentality. In any case V/M had a very good performance it just wasn't PERFECTION and according to the scores neither was D/W's.

I haven't seen any of the PBP but did the same outcry happen after S/S's win in pairs? I mean come on now THAT was a close score :lol:

twinktwink
04-05-2012, 04:43 PM
Ans as for new exibition. You know, i think it look better in practice.



I saw that video too and loved the way it looked in practice. I think its going to get better the more they practice it.