PDA

View Full Version : What does the United States need to do to overcome its Figure Skating slump?



Pages : 1 2 3 4 [5] 6

misskarne
04-02-2012, 02:43 AM
ITA. Lol, and yeah I think if Evan had a 3a as nice as Joshua's that also would have helped!! :lol: but yeah, I hope the USFS doesn't try to create a rivalry between them, because honestly I think they have the potential to be better than Evan and Johnny, I really do, and they are friends/friendly now so why in the world would you want to mess that up?

Joshua's 3A is one of the most beautiful I've seen from an American man in a LONG time. :swoon:

Logically, of course, no-one should want to create a rivalry between two boys who are friendly, but this is the USFSA. Logic need not apply. Hopefully Joshua and Jason are smart enough to see through any attempts to pit them against each other and stay friendly!


I think what's the most promising is that the international judges really think they are both great, I mean they both beat Denis Ten at JW (Joshua by a big 13 point margin) and Denis Ten was 7th at the senior Worlds this year, and it's not like he had the skates of his life at Worlds nor did he in any way bomb at JW, so I think that is a very good sign. I guess we'll know more next season when I assume they will both debut on the senior GP, but I am cautiously optimistic.

I agree with this. To have beaten Ten when Ten has Olympic experience is a wonderful boost for them (and I wonder if it was a downer for Ten?).

I would like to think that the USFSA would blood them at Senior level this year. What's the point of sending them around the Junior circuit again? They'll both be eighteen during the season, so you may as well blood them. And if you look at it, they're only 13/14 months younger than Artur Gachinsky, so it's definitely time to move them up. Plus, this will be their third year skating at Senior Nationals; the USFSA would look like a bunch of prize idiots if the two of them finished top 5/high top 10 and went off to Junior Worlds.


Joshua especially is in good hands, Damon is a great choreographer for him, showcasing his strengths, and is also a father like figure to him, and training with Christy and Patrick has obviously had a positive influence. Jason I hope will start working with a jump coach, but Roehene Ward is a super choreographer and knows how to showcase Jason's talents perfectly. I'm hopeful for these two, really hopeful, and then a few years down the line, I really think Nathan Chen will be a force. The little boy phenoms don't disappear as easily as the little girls do usually, and at 12 he is just incredibly disciplined, focused, and musical not to mention he is a real PERFORMER and has great technique, and he is with Raphael now. And there are enough other talented men in the US too who could potentially have a breakout season and steal the spotlight - I thought Ricky Dornbush was starting to do that, but we'll have to see if he can bounce back next season first.

I think Joshua has improved out of sight since the move to Damon and Christy. It must be nice to have supportive coaches and supportive people in your on-ice life. He's working on the quad and I can't wait to see that. In his ex at JW he also displayed a Rippon 3Lz that looked fabulous for all that it wasn't 100% clean. So I guess we should expect to see that this year too.

I'm really, really pulling for Jason to land this 3A in the off-season. As I said before, he's around, he's just got to land it. Once he has the 3A, he can move on to the other jumps.

I'm not entirely sold on Chen yet. Everything looks a bit rushed, a bit "off", but I can't quite put my finger on what looks wrong, just that it does. Will have to keep an eye on him.

I wonder, if Joshua and Jason finish high enough at the next Nationals, will the USFSA consider sending them to Worlds, knowing how important that Worlds is? I would, but at the same time, it's an awful lot of pressure. Time will tell.




As wilth many athletic development organizations it requires money. Why is it that China is getting funding from GE? Comunicst country getting funding from a US based company. WTH? Why is GE not funding our own Olympic sports? This is an outrage. Funding gives great athletes a chance. Without funding the odds drop and many who have the talent never make it. Amazing GE CEO is head of Jobs creation in the US while Jobs and funding go to CHINA!!!! Time to stop supporting GE and replacing their executives with people who care about the country they come from.

........well.

This certainly explains a lot.

Marco
04-02-2012, 05:58 AM
Marco, I always respect what you have to say.

Do you think that anyone in the 4 disciplines was given the benefit of a doubt this yr at Nats (except maybe Alissa?)

Hiya kwanette :)

This year probably just Czisny. IMO Flatt was given benefit of the doubt at 2010 and 2011 Nationals because of her consistent showings in earlier seasons. Czisny was given benefit of the doubt in 2009 and Meissner in 2008.

Marco
04-02-2012, 06:02 AM
Looking ahead, I think Wagner and Gold, and Farris and Dornbush would be great teams for 2013 Worlds.

RD
04-02-2012, 06:13 AM
Wagner/Gold sounds good now, but how about waiting to see their performances next season? Nothing worse than a pre-determined team, especially considering the history of the Nationals defending champ (of the two that made world teams by finishing 2nd, both had disastrous World results- 12th and now 22nd). Success one year does not equal success next year, and that goes for Gold as well.

I feel USFS has fallen into this trap somewhat as well, giving Flatt benefit-of-doubt National scores in 2010 and 2011 (especially 2010 though), and Czisny benefit-of-doubt scores for her 2012 SP. Is it a coincidence, or was it because they had strong results the previous season?...

pinky166
04-02-2012, 06:18 AM
Looking ahead, I think Wagner and Gold, and Farris and Dornbush would be great teams for 2013 Worlds.

Me too! Probably my ideal picks! Unless Christina can pull an upset, still won't give up on her yet, girl can't have such a great 3f-3t and go nowhere...at least i hope not! Ricky posted some videos of him on twitter doing 3a-3t-2lo...awesome!! http://v.coachseye.com/3fL6 I think he will come back fighting next season!

As for Farris and Brown, I think they will both move up to the GP next season, they each have a GP garaunteed from being in the top 24 SB list, medaling at JGPF, and medaling at JW, I would assume this means their chances of getting 2 assignments would be good. Farris has already done 3 seasons on the JGP, been to two JGPFs, and won 3 golds on the circuit, plus he has a solid 3a already and is working on 4t, so he for sure is ready for the big leagues. Jason I hope moves up, but I could see him staying another year on the circuit if he wants to get his 3a out in an atmosphere with less pressure, because he should still easily make JGPF even if the 3a is shaky. He's only done 2 seasons of JGP and only made one JGPF so another season could make sense, but only if that's what he and his coach decide is best. I personally think he should move up to the GP too, I think he could make quite a splash, but it's his decision of course.

Marco
04-02-2012, 07:57 AM
but how about waiting to see their performances next season?

Of course! :lol: I don't mean to name the teams now and disregard what happens next season, just that I currently would love to see them get chosen for next year if their seasons / Nationals performances so permit.

haribobo
04-02-2012, 12:18 PM
With Armin underwhelming at Nats, Abbott/Rippon doing just ok at Worlds, Dorny bombing out at Nats and 4CC, the political climate for Brown and Farris is PERFECT to come out and take things by storm on the GP next year, if they can skate well. At some point you have to take a risk and I think now is the time, whether or not Jason is landing his 3ax. He can still do semi-decently with the other triples solidly landed since his skating is so good- the GP series is such a crapshoot sometimes, with skaters all at different stages of peaking.

pinky166
04-02-2012, 02:52 PM
With Armin underwhelming at Nats, Abbott/Rippon doing just ok at Worlds, Dorny bombing out at Nats and 4CC, the political climate for Brown and Farris is PERFECT to come out and take things by storm on the GP next year, if they can skate well. At some point you have to take a risk and I think now is the time, whether or not Jason is landing his 3ax. He can still do semi-decently with the other triples solidly landed since his skating is so good- the GP series is such a crapshoot sometimes, with skaters all at different stages of peaking.

I agree but Jason needs to be at least trying 3a. To be competitive with the top guns internationally, even with all his talent, he'd need a 3a and realistically, at least one quad in the FS, so he needs to get cracking on that. He is a great artist like Jeremy so he can likely get away with no quad in the SP, and I guess he said his goal is 2018 now? But still, get the 3a out in competition and start working on a quad would be the smartest thing to do, even if he isn't landing 3a most of the time, it will help to just be trying it. As a young rookie on the GP, no one will judge him much based on placements anyways, because finishing in the middle to bottom of the pack is sort of expected for these youngsters.

bek
04-02-2012, 03:36 PM
With Armin underwhelming at Nats, Abbott/Rippon doing just ok at Worlds, Dorny bombing out at Nats and 4CC, the political climate for Brown and Farris is PERFECT to come out and take things by storm on the GP next year, if they can skate well. At some point you have to take a risk and I think now is the time, whether or not Jason is landing his 3ax. He can still do semi-decently with the other triples solidly landed since his skating is so good- the GP series is such a crapshoot sometimes, with skaters all at different stages of peaking.

Semi decently isn't enough. If I'm the USFSA, I get Dornbush to sports shrink before I put Brown on a world team without a 3 axel..

Look Juniors is one thing, but Seniors is quite a different thing. Look at Adam Rippon if you want a prototype. His PCS are only going to get so high without the technical content.

Now Farris is a different matter.

pinky166
04-02-2012, 04:55 PM
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150708654160664&set=vb.255007411190874&type=2&theater :lol:

Found this video on the ISU figure skating page :). It seems like Joshua and Jason are good friends. Cute videos, cute kids, Josh especially is very handsome! I hope USFS doesn't try to turn these two cuties with tons of talent into Evan-Johnny rivalry 2.0

I agree Farris has the potential to go places. He is the whole package already. If Jason can get a 3a things look good for him too.

Jammers
04-02-2012, 04:56 PM
Time to start pushing the younger kids who i think are the future of US skating. Abbott is almost 27 and still unreliable and i don't see Rippon improving much with his weak jumps. Miner is OK and Dornbush has potential i don't see someone like Armin getting to the next level unless he improves big time. Same with Mroz. Of all those skaters only Abbot is good enough to medal at Worlds but as we've seen he can't be counted on.

mgobluegirl
04-02-2012, 05:07 PM
I think USFS needs to stop pretending that US nationals is the be-all and end-all of the season, if they want their skaters to have success at worlds. Skaters peak too early in the season, and then are seemingly not monitored at all between nationals and worlds. Other countries act like worlds is the most important competition of the year, but USFS acts like nationals is (all of the media focus and everything is on this one event). We're falling behind internationally, but the quality of the skating at the national championships is often very good.

luenatic
04-02-2012, 05:17 PM
The Fed needs to not make dumb, conservative decisions.

For next season, only Ashley Wagner and Davis & White should be given benefit of the doubt at 2013 Nationals.

Disagree. USFS (or judges) should not be making 'bias decision' based on reputation. All skaters need to be treated equally with respect. Judge skaters based on their performance, not their reputation.

Alissa shouldn't be in the top 2 at nationals, IMHO. I thought Caroline Zhang skated better than Alissa in all phases. I wouldn't place Adam in the top 2 either. Ross Miner was better IMHO. But guess what, USFS judges gave Alissa and Adam 'benefit of the doubt' and placed them to the top 2.

pinky166
04-02-2012, 05:48 PM
Time to start pushing the younger kids who i think are the future of US skating. Abbott is almost 27 and still unreliable and i don't see Rippon improving much with his weak jumps. Miner is OK and Dornbush has potential i don't see someone like Armin getting to the next level unless he improves big time. Same with Mroz. Of all those skaters only Abbot is good enough to medal at Worlds but as we've seen he can't be counted on.

I agree. At this point, I'd be paying less attention to Rippon, Mahbanoozadeh, Mroz, Carriere, Razzano, and Abbott unless he can improve his consistency a lot. I think time has passed for them and to me, none of them really stand out.

Miner has some potential, is still fairly young, a solid skater and a good competitor, consistent, is showing improvement, and if he can continue to build and get a quad, he is a good candidate to be the steady 2nd/3rd member to World/Olympic teams. I don't see him becoming the star of the USFS or international stage, but it could happen seeing Lysacek was able to do it.

Dornbush is younger than Miner and has shown a quad in competition, and has a solid 3a-3t combination. He's not particularly artistic, and his jumps (apart from 3a) are not particularly huge or beautiful, but he is an animated performer and has solid technique and good spins, so he is capable of scoring well. I give Ross heavy edge for now due to his consistency and Ricky's recent meltdowns, but if Ricky can come back strong next season, I think he'd move ahead of Ross, as his 4t, 3a-3t, superior spins and animated performances give him an advantage as of now.

Farris is only 17. His 3a is quite solid and beautiful, and the 4t is coming along. Spins, flexibility, lines, artistry, and carriage are all very good. He could use more power, but other than that he's a pretty all around skater. More power is also likely to come as he matures and fills into his body. His new coaching/choreography team seems to be bringing out the best in him, so he's in good hands. He has potential to be the next star, I think, but it's still early. The big question mark is consistency. From what I can tell, he's not a headcase, but generally seems to struggle a bit in the FS. That being said, he skated 2 good programs at the JGP Estonia (when a spot at the JGPF was on the line) and at JW (a high pressure competition where he was a favorite to medal), so it's hard to tell if his first FS at JGP Poland was not great due to it being so early in the season, the mistakes made in his JGPF FS were due to debuting a new program, and the issues in his FS at nationals due to skating a senior FS for the first time all season. That being said, none of these skates were really meltdowns, they just weren't his best. He was very consistent in the SP all season, save Nationals, but that may have been just a fluke. So, as a whole, I don't worry about him becoming a Jeremy-level headcase, but it's still early. With more power, a solid 4t, and consistency, I think he can be an international threat right away. His style is classical but I don't worry about that holding him back seeing how well Chan has done with a similar style.

Jason Brown is wonderful and very different, his style is not classical, but edgy, and he really has that "it" factor. The huge question is the 3a, and realistically he'll need a quad too. I don't doubt that he can master these two jumps, I just realistically think if he becomes a star, it won't be until post 2014. Of course he could end up like Rippon, but he seems to be faster, stronger, and attacks his programs more, so I don't forsee him struggling quite so much to master 3a and quads, it's more just a question of when will he master them? Jason has the potential to be a star too, because like Joshua, he has good spins, flexibility, and choreography. Jason also proved himself to be very consistent this season (save his nationals FS), but you have to wonder if adding the harder jumps to his arsenal will mess this up. Anyways, I think we'll have a better idea about him this summer/next fall when he'll start trying 3a in his programs, if he's successful with it, he can make a splash on the senior level right away, if not, we'll have to wait and see.

Two other people I'm going to mention here may sound like odd choices, but I do think they could surprise in the future and become top US men.

Max Aaron. Yes, as of right now, he really has no artistry, BUT, he does have a huge 4s, solid 3a, and great technique on his jumps. He is very athletic and powerful, not the most consistent, but does not seem like a headcase judging from his performances this season (a few of them were REALLY good). To me he is a bit like Joubert, and in this day and age, I don't know if a skater like that will be able to win lots of international titles, but he can still certainly contend when he skates well. If Max leaves Tom Z, there's also a chance he could become more artistic, we saw Farris improve his artistry dramatically since leaving Tom Z, for example. With Max's build and skating style, I don't ever see him becoming artistic like Farris, but he could at least develop a distinct style and get programs choreographed to show his strengths. So my hope is that he leaves Tom Z, because if he does, I really think he could be a good addition to US international teams because he's so athletic and does have that great 4s that's solid enough to put in both programs. He's still pretty young too, so he has time.

Keegan Messing. Now he is a bit of a headcase, and even less artistic than Max, BUT his PCS marks are pretty good when he skates well due to his power and attack. He has a monster 3a and an equally large 4t when he hits it, is a very animated performer, good spinner, and excels in his step sequences. I can't help but wonder if he left Alaska to work with a well-known coach who could help reign in his wild spirit and teach him discipline (Carrol, Artunian, Orser, etc), that he might be able to find consistency and become a factor. His skating is so unique that if he ever were to skate clean, I think he would do very well internationally and medal at US nationals no doubt. He too is pretty young. In any event, I don't know if he has any interest in leaving Alaska, but I do think he has potential.

Then there's Chen, the phenom, but he won't even be old enough to compete at Worlds until after Sochi anyways. Also if he ends up like Oda's size when he's fully grown and takes awhile to get there, that could lessen the impact of his skating. But for now, he is quite something.

query5
04-02-2012, 06:33 PM
but since u.s.f.s.a. cited rachel.

this is what i would do to alissa-because you almost lost a 2nd spot, and definetly lost the direct entry-
1) only 1 gp event until you can prove handle skating in last half of season after nationals.-
2) no.u.s. gp assignment--you the lost the spot. you had direct entry yourself-should have kept for other skaters.
3) the complaining regarding the F/c whether it had impact or not-i don't know, but you wouldn't let up. thought we snubbed you, wanted to give you more time for worlds due to (injury)

4)that could apply to all u.s skaters--let them know there is consquences for that kinda of thing.
5) lose a spot or direct entry-you are prelim entry until we get 2-3 direct entries.
6) lose a spot -lose s/a as the gp assignment.maybe only push for one depending on situation.
i realized this is harsh -but i am tired of sending U.s. skaters to worlds and see just skating-half-ass. and not getting three when more than capable. is mindblowing.

u.s. skaters have the goods they don't deliver when they should for their own personal, selfish reason.

the u.s. wants more money-but can't get it with skaters not getting 3 in first place and then not medaling in 2nd.

we sent two national champs in ladies 1 former -1 tanks the other did decent kept two (with a bit of help to get to 4th) she skated well enough for 5th-6th.

jeremy 3 time champ-okay but not well.
adam okay-but used excused or short not score what wanted so what-tank in long due to it.

just tired of all the excuses u.s skaters say and than complain about lack of money-not kinda of money they want.

lose marketiabilty after they quit the sport. like patrick chan inflation-might lose marketability if they keep it up and people don't agree with the scores, and reasons given.