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jettasian
03-28-2012, 06:05 AM
This is probably the BEST breakdown of how Chan was scored at 4CC, why his scores have been so high. Besides pointing out all the great in-between elements, he's the only top skater that has a well balanced long program.

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/acrobat/c5/44/40ea843245bbb73224afa5603ead.pdf

agalisgv
03-28-2012, 03:22 PM
he's the only top skater that has a well balanced long program. No, not even by a long-shot. Abbott, Fernandez, and Takahashi are all well-known for balanced programs (as your link points out). In skating, it's harder to do elements in the second-half of the free skate. That's why there are bonus points awarded for jumps past the two minute mark. You'll see that Abbott, Fernandez, and especially Takahashi do more elements past that point. Those would be indicators of a well-balanced, while technically more difficult program (in the sense of placement of elements).

You're not looking for a 50/50 split--you're looking for programs that don't front-end jumping passes (something Plushenko is known for doing). To be fair, all the skaters who perform quads do them at the beginning of their programs while their legs are still fresh. But you hope to see an equal if not greater number of jumping passes in the second half of the program (all of which you see in Abbott, Fernandez, and Takahashi).

There are many things to praise Chan on, but saying he's the only one with balance in his free skate wouldn't be one of them.

Kasey
03-28-2012, 06:22 PM
I would add Hanyu to the above list mentioned (Abbott, Fernandez, and for god's sake, Takahashi!)

Vash01
03-28-2012, 06:40 PM
To be fair, all the skaters who perform quads do them at the beginning of their programs while their legs are still fresh. But you hope to see an equal if not greater number of jumping passes in the second half of the program (all of which you see in Abbott, Fernandez, and Takahashi).

There are many things to praise Chan on, but saying he's the only one with balance in his free skate wouldn't be one of them.

Agalis, You are forgetting that jettasian is a Chan worshipper who does not think there is another skater in the world that can do anything better than Chan - anything at all. Logic may not work here.

For the quads you are absolutely right. A quad really needs fresh legs. IIRC Lambiel was one of the few (and I think a Chinese skater whose name I forget, was another one, plus Tim Goebel in the old days) who did a second quad deep into his LP. May be Joubert too? I am not sure.

jettasian
03-28-2012, 06:40 PM
The facts are there. Well balanced means 50 front, 50 back, or close to that, not front loaded or back loaded. Yes, keeping the jumps at the last half is more difficult, so there's to earn bonus marks but that's back loaded program. Chan's choreo has all the elements perfectly placed to even out from start to finish. That's the genius in his long program.

jettasian
03-28-2012, 06:44 PM
Agalis, You are forgetting that jettasian is a Chan worshipper who does not think there is another skater in the world that can do anything better than Chan - anything at all. Logic may not work here.


LOL. First of all, I simply provided the fact that's out there. I did NOT make anything up. Speak about logic, it's more like some people just refuse to see facts despite it's there. When it's straight, they still believe it's crooked. :rolleyes:

agalisgv
03-28-2012, 07:03 PM
The facts are there. Well balanced means 50 front, 50 back, or close to that From YOUR link:

Abbott: 48-52
Fernandez: 46-54

If that doesn't qualify as close to 50-50, you're in denial.

I should also say your link looked at scores with GOE added in. But that actually skews the result for Chan, because if you look at just the value of the elements themselves (which would mean how the elements are choreographed in the program), that results in a 49-51 split for Chan. Which is a whopping 1% difference from Abbott. It just so happens that at 4C's where Chan's number is taken from, he overperformed in the first half of his program and underperformed in the second half (meaning his higher GOE on elements in the first half outweighed his GOE in the second half, making it look like there was a 50/50 split in element value when in fact there wasn't).

So no, Chan does not an exclusive on well-balanced programs. The numbers don't lie ;).

manleywoman
03-28-2012, 07:04 PM
WARRIOR POSE:
Chan’s trademark deep knee lunge — a leg-strengthening move in yoga — adds value to his choreo- graphy and ups his overall performance.
:rofl: So if everyone does a "trademark Chan lunge", they get higher scores in performance, :lol:!

Love these writers!

Skittl1321
03-28-2012, 07:08 PM
:rofl: So if everyone does a "trademark Chan lunge", they get higher scores in performance, :lol:!

Love these writers!

Okay- I actually quite enjoy Chan, but that cracks me up. Pre-pre skaters do these 'deep knee lunges'. I've never ever thought of it as a Chan trademark. Does he really always do one?


The explanation of the loop is particularly terrible. "Similar to the toe loop but without the toe assisted take off". Some writer clearly knows nothing about jumps. The loops is SO different from the toe loop, even if they both take off with the skating leg at the back outside edge.

ponta1
03-28-2012, 07:16 PM
Wow, some people have a lot of time on their hands! Nice layout of the chart, though.

agalisgv
03-28-2012, 07:20 PM
I realize this is shooting fish in a barrel, but one more thing.

Chan's split at the GPF was: 45-55. If we use the article's method of adding in GOE, Chan's split now becomes 42-58--pretty close to Takahashi's backended number.

Abbott's split at the GPF was 48-52. IOW, more balanced than Chan.

But the obvious fallacy in all this is the scores don't reflect what was actually *planned* in the program--only what was performed. So a 1A may not have been planned in the first half, but it's listed under required elements anyway because the skater popped his 3A attempt. So this doesn't have anything to do with actual choreography since you'd have to look at what the elements that were planned for, not what was actually performed.

Anyhow, this is all rather basic and intuitive I think for most folk.

BreakfastClub
03-28-2012, 08:05 PM
:rofl: So if everyone does a "trademark Chan lunge", they get higher scores in performance, :lol:!

:yikes:

Mike. Pike. Memories. Evoked.

Must run!!!!!

:scream:

(Chan is a great skater, but this analysis is ridiculous and could be applied to any of the top men and manipulated to make them look as good or even better. :slinkaway)

jl
03-28-2012, 08:17 PM
I love Chan's skating and I have to :rofl: at this.

And I love how a subjective statement is apparently a "fact".

But, if this kind of hyperbole attracts some kind of attention to FS, maybe it's all for the best overall... :shuffle:

nylynnr
03-28-2012, 08:41 PM
:rofl: So if everyone does a "trademark Chan lunge", they get higher scores in performance, :lol:!

Love these writers!

I'm not sure I would denigrate the Toronto Star. Do you watch Mad Men? It's rather like Don Draper saying Lucky Strikes are toasted. The marketing, PR, and handling of Patrick Chan has been, IMO, near-masterful over the past 3 or 4 years, with the obvious China glitch. The chart, which took some expert consult, will be ridiculed on FSU but I think it's an effective counter to the many who are belatedly writing Chan is over scored. Guess we'll see in Nice.

agalisgv
03-28-2012, 09:04 PM
The chart, which took some expert consult, will be ridiculed on FSU but I think it's an effective counter to the many who are belatedly writing Chan is over scored. The only people who would have an opinion about Chan's scores one way or another are skating aficionados. And it's exactly those people who can see the 1000 holes in that chart.

Personally I don't know why people make such arguments because they are a bit ridiculous and easy to critique. The better argument is Chan has strong skating skills and multiple quads in his programs. I can't imagine many would disagree with that.