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os168
03-26-2012, 11:56 AM
So Asians are the only ethnic group that sportswriters make "creative cheesy puns" about? I don't think so.

How about boarder lined on bad taste and offensive? The last time I checked this is 2012 not 1962. There should be no need for this sort of thing, but then some people just don't have no clue.

Japanfan
03-26-2012, 12:07 PM
He won a free skate where Daisuke had ONE fall and the rest of his skate was beautifully done. And Patrick had more than one major mistake.


Are you referring to GPF? Check the protocols, which will explain why Chan beat him on TES. Chan had a higher base mark - perhaps Daisuke has since increased his base mark to be more competitive with Chan.


If Chan fans can't understand why that's unfair, I don't know what to say. That's why the sport needs to start mandating hits in PCS for poorly executed programs.

That's generally where the argument lies. The problem is that PCS are subjective, like the artistry mark under 6.0. There will always be people who claim that a particular skater's artistry is superior, be it Lambiel or B&S or Kwan or Chan or Yuna - and others who claim that said skater wuz gifted.

I agree with you that PCS could better reflect poorly versus well executed programs. But Aussie William has explained how difficult that is to do, because poorly executed programs can still be skated with strong basics, have good transitions and choreo, and be performed well.

So what PCS points would would you adjust and how would you do it? Would it be possible for one program with mistakes to earn higher PCS than another programs with the same content and mistakes?

bek
03-26-2012, 02:54 PM
Are you referring to GPF? Check the protocols, which will explain why Chan beat him on TES. Chan had a higher base mark - perhaps Daisuke has since increased his base mark to be more competitive with Chan.



That's generally where the argument lies. The problem is that PCS are subjective, like the artistry mark under 6.0. There will always be people who claim that a particular skater's artistry is superior, be it Lambiel or B&S or Kwan or Chan or Yuna - and others who claim that said skater wuz gifted.

I agree with you that PCS could better reflect poorly versus well executed programs. But Aussie William has explained how difficult that is to do, because poorly executed programs can still be skated with strong basics, have good transitions and choreo, and be performed well.

So what PCS points would would you adjust and how would you do it? Would it be possible for one program with mistakes to earn higher PCS than another programs with the same content and mistakes?


But what people are saying is that a program with three falls in it, how can it be considered performed well? That's an oxymoron. That person may still be trying hard to sell said program, but how can people look at said skate and say what a great skate??

Now is Chan with 3 falls still going to get higher PCS than lets say even a Brezina with 3 falls, well absolutely. But should he necessarily be getting higher P/E score if he falls 3 times, and Brezina doesn't-the answer is no.

What people are mad about with the GPF, is Chan getting higher PCS scores than Daisuke when for that performance Daisuke's PCS should have been much higher than Chan's...

Now yes strong basics are strong basics, and I will of course skating skills should be still be high perhaps yes still higher than Brezina's. But when said skater falls that many times have they demonstrated as high of skating skills as when they are not falling? No. So maybe when a skater like Chan falls 4 times he should be getting 8s-not 9s for skating skills. Once again the gap when Chan is that messy should be lower...

Likewise if a lot of your transtiions are coming out of jumps and you are falling on said jumps, have you demonstrated as good of transitions, as if you had landed your jumps. Once again said answer is no. No you still maybe had more transitions than anyone else and so the marks still could reflect that absolutely, but should the score on transitions be as high as if you want clean-nope.

Do you see the point I"m getting at. But mainly the point I'm hating is the whole P/E thing. Nobody should be getting 8s or 9s in that score for programs with multiple glaring errors. Not Chan, Not Daisuke, Not Lambiel. Not Yu-na. Its an absolute joke.

antmanb
03-26-2012, 03:03 PM
I still don't get the title the article - what six inches does he conquer?

overedge
03-26-2012, 03:51 PM
How about boarder lined on bad taste and offensive? The last time I checked this is 2012 not 1962. There should be no need for this sort of thing, but then some people just don't have no clue.

You were the one who called it a "creative cheesy pun". And maybe it is also in bad taste and offensive (IMHO it's just stupid), but you still haven't shown how Chan's being Asian has anything to do with that.

Dave of the North
03-26-2012, 03:51 PM
I still don't get the title the article - what six inches does he conquer?

Between his ears - i.e his brain. It's a sports metaphor, that you have taken control of negative thoughts, etc and you have been able to succeed. The opposite would be a headcase (whether hysterical or not:P) - e.g. someone who is great in practise and falls apart in competition. I'm sure we can all think of several examples...

ItalianFan
03-26-2012, 04:29 PM
Are you referring to GPF? Check the protocols, which will explain why Chan beat him on TES. Chan had a higher base mark - perhaps Daisuke has since increased his base mark to be more competitive with Chan.



That's generally where the argument lies. The problem is that PCS are subjective, like the artistry mark under 6.0. There will always be people who claim that a particular skater's artistry is superior, be it Lambiel or B&S or Kwan or Chan or Yuna - and others who claim that said skater wuz gifted.

I agree with you that PCS could better reflect poorly versus well executed programs. But Aussie William has explained how difficult that is to do, because poorly executed programs can still be skated with strong basics, have good transitions and choreo, and be performed well.

So what PCS points would would you adjust and how would you do it? Would it be possible for one program with mistakes to earn higher PCS than another programs with the same content and mistakes?

In my book, "poorly executed" programs, by definition, cAn never be "performed well", that's t he whole difference.

Iceman
03-26-2012, 04:36 PM
There are times when a gold medal should not be awarded at a competition imo and a case would be when the highest scoring skater had multiple falls in his program. Gold has to stand for and mean something and a seriously flawed program does not qualify imo.
This practice---not awarding a gold because no competitor met the gold standard---has bee around for awhile in other nonsport competitions, and I think it is time it was done in figure skating. The "Chan" situation will be addressed before Sochi, I think. It is being discussed too much and bothering too many persons not to be seriously addressed.

Seerek
03-26-2012, 04:40 PM
I still think the big issue is whether or not Positive Grades of Execution are being applied appropriately and equitably for all the skaters. As much as people think the component scores are the main problem, I think excess GOE's can be just as influential to the overall scores as "inflated" components. Positive GOEs for 10 completed elements can easily compensate for 3 flawed elements in a long program - that's just the way the points work out.

kittyjake5
03-26-2012, 04:58 PM
I still think the big issue is whether or not Positive Grades of Execution are being applied appropriately and equitably for all the skaters. As much as people think the component scores are the main problem, I think excess GOE's can be just as influential to the overall scores as "inflated" components. Positive GOEs for 10 completed elements can easily compensate for 3 flawed elements in a long program - that's just the way the points work out.

This!

Emdee
03-26-2012, 05:23 PM
They will for sure address the'Chan situation' but what will the naysayers say when he lands his jumps?

Zemgirl
03-26-2012, 05:45 PM
I still think the big issue is whether or not Positive Grades of Execution are being applied appropriately and equitably for all the skaters. As much as people think the component scores are the main problem, I think excess GOE's can be just as influential to the overall scores as "inflated" components. Positive GOEs for 10 completed elements can easily compensate for 3 flawed elements in a long program - that's just the way the points work out.
Absolutely, and that's were the real scoring inflation has been in recent years. I vote for GOEs to be more about the quality of the elements than the difficulty of the entries. I don't care if someone had cool transitions going in if the jump barely gets off the ice/has little distance/ends with an ugly landing.

OliviaPug
03-26-2012, 06:27 PM
Quite simply the funniest article I've read in a LONG time! :lol:

O-

aftershocks
03-26-2012, 06:44 PM
I still think the big issue is whether or not Positive Grades of Execution are being applied appropriately and equitably for all the skaters. As much as people think the component scores are the main problem, I think excess GOE's can be just as influential to the overall scores as "inflated" components. Positive GOEs for 10 completed elements can easily compensate for 3 flawed elements in a long program - that's just the way the points work out.

^^ This!


They will for sure address the'Chan situation' but what will the naysayers say when he lands his jumps?

Bravo! Whenever he skates well, Chan tends to receive kudos from most everyone. Witness the adulatory thread for him on FSU after his Canadian Nats skate this year. Critics and ubers alike were waxing poetic. In the last couple of years Chan has seemed to get stronger during the last half of the season. Again, too bad he isn't allowed to just stand on his own as a skater w/o all the over-aggrandizing and over-marking of his SS and quad mastery, particularly when he doesn't skate well overall.




I would really love a surprise win at worlds, a win no one could have predicted, a come from behind shocker.

:respec: :cheer:



...But, yawn, Chan will win, again.

Yes, if Milton, the judges, and the puppies have anything to say about it (no matter how good or bad Chan skates, btw).

:dog: :yawn:

Rafter
03-26-2012, 07:39 PM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/patrick-chan-looking-to-add-to-skating-legacy/article2381507/email/

Here's another article for all you Chan haters. It's almost as if the writer of this article has read this thread and wrote this just for you. :saint: