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falling_dance
03-26-2012, 01:52 AM
When did Chan win with four falls?

2010 Skate Canada. He fell three times in the short (on the 4t, 3a, and in the straight line step sequence) and once in the free skate, finishing ahead of Oda and Rippon.

overedge
03-26-2012, 01:56 AM
This is not about prejudiced against Asians, but about how clueless some of those so called 'journalist' who think they are smart aleks that can get get away with their creative cheesy puns referring Asians, be they racially insensitive, provocative or weirdly inappropriate.

So Asians are the only ethnic group that sportswriters make "creative cheesy puns" about? I don't think so.

4rkidz
03-26-2012, 02:19 AM
I agree with some of the other posters.. the Chan hate is palpable.. I have been on these boards since almost the beginning and usually stay out of the trash can.. but hard to avoid the Chan hate.. I can't recall another skater who gathers quite as much venom.. :blah: I've actually met him and he is really, really nice - even the other competitors like him.. I know sometimes he has some foot and mouth issues.. but still I'm not sure what it is about him that tweaks people so :P Especially as he is not responsible for what a writer writes.. or what a Judge - Judges..:confused:

bek
03-26-2012, 02:45 AM
FYI, it is possible to be a fan of more than one skater. Even if one has a favourite, a discerning fan can understand why that person loses to another. Yes, even in the case of a clean Chan against someone with better basic skills.



Um, Patrick gets marks for his jumps and spins just like everyone else.



When did Chan win with four falls? The most I can remember would be three falls or three major mistakes. And Lambiel had wins with similar errors. In fact, I remember his coming back from a terrible SP to win Skate Canada in 2007 with something like five mistakes.

And rotations count, like it or not. And the base mark counts too. Takahashi has had a lower base mark than Chan this season. You can argue than Chan is over-marked in terms of PCS, but his technical scores are justifiable according to the system.



That is not what all Chan fans are saying. You can be a fan and still disagree with the judging. You can be a fan and still prefer your favourite to lose to a better skater in a strong field than win with a flawed performance in a weak field.

But when a skate with errors wins over a clean skate, the argument is almost always that the winning skate was more difficult, artistic or choreographically complex. There are innumerable examples of that, B&S versus S&P being the most the most immediately comes to mind.



And Patrick fans can be equally capable of the same discernment.


First of all I've criticized some of Lambiel's scores before and Daisuke's. I never said that all Patrick Chan fans are so crazy uberish that they can recognize some skater skated better... There are plenty who can.

But there are some on this board who will defend any result Patrick has-falling 3 or 4 times or not. Then there who are some who may not be ubers but think falling 3/4 times and still winning is no biggie because all that matters is transitions/skating skills.

I actually do think Patrick is EXTREMELY disliked though. I do think its more a dislike of the judging and not him.

Aussie Willy
03-26-2012, 03:23 AM
I agree with some of the other posters.. the Chan hate is palpable.. I have been on these boards since almost the beginning and usually stay out of the trash can.. but hard to avoid the Chan hate.. I can't recall another skater who gathers quite as much venom.. :blah: I've actually met him and he is really, really nice - even the other competitors like him.. I know sometimes he has some foot and mouth issues.. but still I'm not sure what it is about him that tweaks people so :P Especially as he is not responsible for what a writer writes.. or what a Judge - Judges..:confused:

I have to agree. It really is quite noticeable how much hate he seems to engender on this forum.

Japanfan
03-26-2012, 03:56 AM
I think you're mixing up conversations. You initially said Chan was one of the most disliked skaters ever. I (and others) said no, others have received far harsher treatment, and I said much of the criticisms are leveled at Chan's supporters. You responded that criticism is primarily focused on judging. I said that's true, but that's not criticism directed at Chan personally. The criticisms directed personally at Chan are comments regarding statements he's made over the years in various articles. And yes, some think he's cocky, etc.

But the discussions over his perceived cockiness tend to be separate from judging and COP discussions.

My perception is different. I haven't perceived a whole lot of criticism to be directed at Chan's supporters rather than at him or the judging of his programs. I'm a Chan fan - though not an uber - and haven't felt criticized for that. But it's possible that I haven't paid much attention to posts that criticize the ubers because I'm not that interested in them.

ponta1
03-26-2012, 04:06 AM
I have read enough posts to know the intention from some of the posters, who like to find any excuses to insult Chan and his skate.

Nope, everyone has their favourite skaters. I don't go gaga over Dai or other skaters like many do. But I don't go out to bash them, insult them or ridicule them like Chan gets from his haters either.


How quickly we forget. I believe you said something to the effect that "Dai's overrated; his artistry over the top; nothing in between the jumps and the arm movements..." for starters. That's just one that I remember off the top of my head; there are others.

Vash01
03-26-2012, 04:10 AM
My perception is that it's the judging that gets criticized, and not so much Chan. For this particular article, the writer was being ridiculed, but some Chan ubers took it to mean as criticism and hatred toward Chan. I see the same reaction when judges marks for Chan are criticized. It's like Chan must never be criticized for anything at all, whether the criticism was actually directed toward him or not. Just stating my observations.

Aussie Willy
03-26-2012, 04:46 AM
My perception is that it's the judging that gets criticized, and not so much Chan. For this particular article, the writer was being ridiculed, but some Chan ubers took it to mean as criticism and hatred toward Chan. I see the same reaction when judges marks for Chan are criticized. It's like Chan must never be criticized for anything at all, whether the criticism was actually directed toward him or not. Just stating my observations.
I do think there is a lot of personal criticism directed towards him as well, it is not just judging issues. Particularly about comments he has made.

walei
03-26-2012, 04:48 AM
SIGH... as with any Chanflation topics, I have always asked what exactly Patrick should get in terms of TES + PCS and what his competitors should get to win over him for those competitions that Chan won with supposedly 4 falls cushion.

Still no Chaters can give me a solid answer.

agalisgv
03-26-2012, 04:51 AM
I do think there is a lot of personal criticism directed towards him as well, it is not just judging issues. Particularly about comments he has made. Moreso than Plush? Moreso than Flatt? Moreso than DomShabs? Moreso than Slutskaya? Moreso than Harding? Moreso than Lipinski?

I mean, really???

I think one has to have a very short memory or engage in extremely selective recall to think Chan is somehow exceptional in the criticism department. Maybe that's because when one likes a skater, the critiques are often viewed as 'venom' and hence, invalid. While with skaters one isn't invested in, it just all sounds like run-of-the-mill criticism.

Funny thing is, many of the Chan conversations between his ubers and critics remind me very much of previous Weir conversations. "Oh he's so frank and refreshing!" "No, he's an arrogant prick." "People are just jealous of Johnny and his talent :drama:" etc.

Same song, same tune, yadda, yadda, yadda

bek
03-26-2012, 04:57 AM
I do think there is a lot of personal criticism directed towards him as well, it is not just judging issues. Particularly about comments he has made.
But a lot of comments he's made have earned the criticism.. Its like a two edge sword with him not only does it look like he gets a lot of favoritism with the judges, but he also makes some un PC criticism. For me one of the things that bugs, is that he doesn't even seem to look too upset when he skates poorly, because he sooo knows his score is going to be through the roof no matter what he does. It also makes him more confident to go for lets say 2 quads, because he knows he has that PCS cushion. Others skaters even very good skaters have no such guarantee that they'll score huge PCS when they fall all over. So they can't risk the quad fall, thats why the whole situation feels unfair.

This being said I realize that a lot of my venom towards him is unfair, that he can't help his marks, and I try to praise the guy when he skates well because he IS a beautiful skater.

But for me some of it is the fans, when his win is defend no matter what. I'm frustrated with the idea that its no big deal if a skater falls multiple times, to see this type of system get praised. And I'm annoyed when people say I want to "guillitoine a skater" just because I think it should affect their results for that competition.

Of course skating is tough and these skaters put it all out there, but excuse me for thinking what you put out in the ice matters.

It really is what Chan represents to me, the worst excesses of IJS.

I get that he does have his good qualities and once again is a lovely skater. It really is the judging in the end, not him. If the judges would let for example Daisuke when a free program, when Chan's a mess and Dai for the most part skates beautifully. I could actually start to enjoy Patrick better, and Patrick might even become a favorite. But these marks are ruining it for me. If people thinking Skate Falling is going to win fans...

Its frustrating because he's a beautiful skater who I could probably grow to love, if it weren't for that judging and the feeling of unfairness about it.

shine
03-26-2012, 05:02 AM
I agree with some of the other posters.. the Chan hate is palpable.. I have been on these boards since almost the beginning and usually stay out of the trash can.. but hard to avoid the Chan hate.. I can't recall another skater who gathers quite as much venom.. :blah:

Oh come on,what a ridiculous thing to say for someone who has been here since 2001. Chan really doesn't have to be first in everything you know. The "Chan Hate" cannot even start to be compared to the hate that Plushenko has been generating on this board since, like, 2006, of which I'm thoroughly guilty :D

4rkidz
03-26-2012, 05:04 AM
Moreso than Plush? Moreso than Flatt? Moreso than DomShabs? Moreso than Slutskaya? Moreso than Harding? Moreso than Lipinski?

I mean, really???

I think one has to have a very short memory or engage in extremely selective recall to think Chan is somehow exceptional in the criticism department. Maybe that's because when one likes a skater, the critiques are often viewed as 'venom' and hence, invalid. While with skaters one isn't invested in, it just all sounds like run-of-the-mill criticism.

you might have a point.. although I was a huge Slutskaya and Lipinski fan and didn't 'feel' the hate as much.. can't recall them having actually language changed about them etc., (chanflation, chantastic - an other apparent 'joking' language) .. especially in reference to their own favourite skater as much.. but you might be right :blah:

bek
03-26-2012, 05:16 AM
you might have a point.. although I was a huge Slutskaya and Lipinski fan and didn't 'feel' the hate as much.. can't recall them having actually language changed about them etc., (chanflation, chantastic - an other apparent 'joking' language) .. especially in reference to their own favourite skater as much.. but you might be right :blah:

Tara got a ton of venom, if I recall. But Tara never won competitions falling all over the place. She won skating well. As for Irina, she too was never held up when she was falling multiple times. There were a ton of Worlds she would have beaten Kwan at, if she had skated her best, but she didn't so she lost.

If people have resentment for Chan its because there's the feeling that he doesn't even have to skate well. Irina and Tara DID. Even Plushenko as much as people may have disliked his style, would go out there and deliver the goods, and the few times he didn't, he paid. (See 3 of the World titles Yagudin won, and 2002 and 2010 Olympics) Same goes for Yagudin.

Poor Michelle Kwan in comparision to what Patrick Chan gets (at 1998 and 2002 Olympics) talk about robbed...