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jettasian
03-25-2012, 11:52 PM
Jettasian, you take any slight against Patrick too personally. Furthermore, as far as this article and the perceived "hate" you mention, it's against the author, and it's not hate, more like ridicule.

I have read enough posts to know the intention from some of the posters, who like to find any excuses to insult Chan and his skate.


Seems to me that Chan is one of the mostly highly disliked top skaters of all time.


Yup. Since he has won so many, with wide margin, it irks people. It shows nothing but bitterness that their favorite was not the one winning.


Seems to me the top skaters who receive the most unfavorable criticisms and opinions are the ones who have the most melodramatic, over-defensive fans. Not everyone has to be hopelessly ga-ga over your favorite skater just because you are and because you say no one is more talented than them and they will always win and be the best, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There is this attitude from this type of fan of "treat my favorite skater with kid gloves while I nonchalantly trash yours" and they post as if their opinions are facts; the hypocrisy knows no bounds! :blah::2faced::rolleyes::rollin::slinkaway

Nope, everyone has their favourite skaters. I don't go gaga over Dai or other skaters like many do. But I don't go out to bash them, insult them or ridicule them like Chan gets from his haters either.


Chan does not come with a
Chan has given multiple foot-in-mouth interviews and statements during his career, and has justly been called out for some of his comments over the years. In this case, it's hardly his fault that some overexcited journalist decided to present him as SuperChan the Savior of Skating, but making fun of a silly article is not the same as disliking a skater, and it's certainly not hate. Bad writing should be ridiculed.

Those so called "foot in the mouth" interviews could be sensationalized by the media. But of course it's just another excuse for the haters to grill on it. Abbott has recently made several very cocky statements. But of course he got a pass because he's not Chan. Chan has made tones to very humble, nice interviews. But I guess that's not exciting. If this article was written about another skater instead of Chan, I bet it'd have been buried somewhere else.


While I think some of Chan's comments over the years have been......unfortunate :shuffle:, at this point I think the biggest issue some have is with Chan's supporters--not Chan himself.


And what kind of issue the Chan's supporters have? What about the Chan haters? They are not the issues?

agalisgv
03-26-2012, 12:01 AM
Nope, everyone has their favourite skaters. I don't go gaga over Dai or other skaters like many do. But I don't go out to bash them, insult them or ridicule them like Chan gets from his haters either. Really? I could have sworn some posters took you to task for insulting Jeremy Abbott in the Chan ubers thread in the Trash Can. And IIRC, you basically ignored those posters' pleas for decorum, saying you were justified in calling Abbott a tool and so forth.

jettasian
03-26-2012, 12:15 AM
Are you taking another break from PC uber thread? Where, btw, I see that you were somewhat reprimanded for gratuitously casting aspersions onto Jeremy Abbott simply because he responded to press queries asking him how he thinks he “stacks up” against Patrick Chan. Jeremy responded in a very reasonable and respectable fashion, and with self-confidence. How would you have preferred Jeremy to respond?

You see, different people view it differently. Chan was simply answered some of his interviewers questions too in the past. But haters would like to grill him on every word he had said. But then when Abbott's cocky assessment, of course, that's another story.



Gosh, jeez … even Patrick himself (despite his humongous and exponentially growing SS) is aware that there are other men skaters on the planet and in the same league who have skills, who have been and are working just as hard as he is – even tho’ Patrick is the only one with the outsize SS that have overtaken the judges and are threatening to devour the entire sport. Cue up the iconic theme to JAWS... ITs ALIVE!!!

It's called being humble. Or course he will acknowledge that there are other great skaters out there.



I doubt there would be such a need for all the over-hyping of Patrick, the oversensitivity to criticism of his high scores when he doesn’t skate well, the holding him up on PCS, the over-protectiveness, the ham-handed declarations of how artistic he is. Allow him to breathe, take off the training wheels and let Patrick steer himself. Allow him to develop as a human being and as a complete skater. Let it be a competition, not an automatic 20-pt spread b/c of his SS.

Give me a break, Abbott and Dai got held up in PCS MORE than Chan had. Artistry is subjective, just because you don't think he had, that doesn't mean he didn't have. And PCS make up of FIVE different components, and he can easily have the edge over the other skaters.

Only the people who like to ignore the actual skate, the actual break down point by point and like to make general assumption whenever THEIR fave skater couldn't win. The judges must be crazy blah blah blah :rolleyes:


Great that Chan is "quite humble." His SS are not. Neither are the judges in their assessment. And neither is Milton in the throes of his "six inches" Chanorgasm.

I'm glad the judges KNOW what they are watching.

jettasian
03-26-2012, 12:16 AM
Really? I could have sworn some posters took you to task for insulting Jeremy Abbott in the Chan ubers thread in the Trash Can. And IIRC, you basically ignored those posters' pleas for decorum, saying you were justified in calling Abbott a tool and so forth.

I did that because HE DID say those cocky statements. I did not go out and insult him any chance I got like Chan haters do.

jettasian
03-26-2012, 12:18 AM
At least Steve Milton's article was short.

AND FUNNY!

agalisgv
03-26-2012, 12:18 AM
I did that because HE DID say those cocky statements. I did not go out and insult him any chance I got like Chan haters do. I see--so you were justified in bashing another skater (even though you claimed you don't engage in such behaviors--at least we've clarified that's untrue). It's just not okay for people to criticize the skater you like because that's, like, so totally different.

Got it

jettasian
03-26-2012, 12:27 AM
I can't help thinking if some skater came around with better skating skills than Patrick (could happen Chan fans) and said skater started winning with 4 falls, a program over a much cleaner Patrick, that a lot of Patrick's fans would be crying foul. I'm imagining now the Canadian press... :lol:

Another example someone like to make baseless assumption :rolleyes:


At the end of the day my issue is if all that matters is skating skills, why have things like jumps and spins? Let them all skate around the ice, do moves in the field etc and be done with it.

Chan's score was NOT just based on skating skills. It's based on a combinations of ALL other components, choreography, transitions, jumps, edges, speeds, degree of difficulty etc. He won based on all these qualities. But of course, haters like to replace these qualities by "accumulative falls"



My other problems the judges are hardly consistent when it comes to PCS. Kozuka, who has fabulous basic skating of his own, is not getting anywhere NEAR those kind of PCS, and others like Daisuke not getting credit for things he does better interpretation/performance.

Kozuka doesn't command the ice rink. He always "look down" while he skates that comes across as lack of confident in the eyes of the judges. It's his bad habit that he needs to change.



I actually do think in the end if the elements are close the best skater should really win. But I find the concept of someone winning with four falls in a competition (and people saying someone did more ROTATIONS as justification.. Why even have a competition then?

Chan did not win with four falls. He want with great quality skating AND other errors made by other skaters. It's a combination of both.



This is suppose to be a sport and delivering on the ice should matter. IMO. It bothers me that this system they have created says it doesn't. And thats why Chan fans are saying, right? The system says how clean you skate doesn't matter.

Skating clean has nothing to do with the system. Were all skates cleaned under 6.0?

os168
03-26-2012, 12:29 AM
:rolleyes: So somebody writes a stupid article about Chan and suddenly that's Canadian prejudice against "Asian dudes"? You have no idea what you're talking about.

OHh puurrlllleease you clearly have no idea what I am referring to do you.

This is not about prejudiced against Asians, but about how clueless some of those so called 'journalist' who think they are smart aleks that can get get away with their creative cheesy puns referring Asians, be they racially insensitive, provocative or weirdly inappropriate. Have '6 toughest inches' ever been referred to any past skaters, male or female? So why now? :blah:

OT. Pieces like this always says more about the writer than the subject matter. During Linsanity, there were all sort of weird headline appearing in the US press, that shows they are not used to deal with having successful Asian Americans without the stereotyping (Asian American male are probably among the most under represented in the main media, they always appear as either nerds, triads, cooks, waiters or office workers). Weird headlines and crazy puns suddenly appeared all week that although are not intentionally racist, but inevitably are.

Headlines like 'Amasian' (WTH is that?) appeared,
Fortune Cookie for the Knicks, and an ESPN staff even got fired for writing the headline 'A Chink in the armor' the first time Lin lose his winning streaks. Bit of an over reaction maybe, but necessary in the view of a steep learning curve from journalist community dealing with racial sensitivity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_feFqoUM0ks

My personal favourite worst pun: Jere-meat Sauce with Lin-guine. At least it does not refer to his race and is so laugh out bad.

jettasian
03-26-2012, 12:29 AM
I see--so you were justified in bashing another skater (even though you claimed you don't engage in such behaviors--at least we've clarified that's untrue). It's just not okay for people to criticize the skater you like because that's, like, so totally different.

Got it

Chan got criticized and insulted whether it's his interviews, or ARTICLES written by others about him, or getting high scores by the judges or whatever reasons out there. I responded to whatever Abbott said, but at least I don't insult his skates or whatever mean stuff often heard from Chan's haters.

4rkidz
03-26-2012, 12:31 AM
The writing with all the similes, metaphors and cliches made my head hurt.

Steve Milton.. what do you expect? It's commercial writing for the masses.. I think as figure skating fans we should just appreciate a sports writer who actually seems to like figure skating..:blah:

jettasian
03-26-2012, 12:33 AM
Chan is way overhyped and his skating does not live up to the hype.
What I find happens is that Chan gets such overinflated marks in the SP that no one can catch up.
We may as well just give him the gold now so all the other skaters can just fight for silver and bronze.
I would really love a surprise win at worlds, a win no one could have predicted, a come from behind shocker. But, yawn, Chan will win, again.

Chan was not overhyped. His straight wins in the last year or so made it the news.

Which SP he got overinflated? Care to elaborate which mark and show the breakdown?

agalisgv
03-26-2012, 12:40 AM
Chan got criticized and insulted whether it's his interviews, or ARTICLES written by others about him, or getting high scores by the judges or whatever reasons out there. I responded to whatever Abbott said, but at least I don't insult his skates or whatever mean stuff often heard from Chan's haters. Like I said--you're bashing of others is totally different and okay!

Perhaps a little self-reflection is in order ;)

As I said before, the majority of critiques for Chan personally are based on things he says in interviews which some find problematic. Kinda like you did with Abbott ;).

The other stuff that I see is typically critiques of COP and/or judging WRT some of Chan's scores (but not usually his placements), or regarding the OTT behavior of some of Chan's fans here. I think it's important to distinguish those critiques/criticisms from those directed at Chan himself.

Unfortunately, a minority of Chan fans aren't able to do that.

Japanfan
03-26-2012, 12:51 AM
But I don't recall people disliking *Chan* for that--only critiquing the judges. You specified dislike for Chan himself, and I just don't see that much.


To give an example, some have said Patrick is cocky, rude and arrogant - which is about his personality and attitude, not the judges - and that his inflated scores only support his overly large ego and allow him to just coast along due to his 3-mistake advantage.



And to be fair, many of the same judging criticisms emerged with Slutskaya and Plushenko. I just don't see how Chan is anywhere near one of the most disliked skaters---as I said in my previous post, Rachel Flatt anyone?

I would agree about Slutskaya, Plushenko and Flatt. But the reason Patrick seems to me among the most hated is that when he wins with falls and mistakes, I fear the board will implode. Maybe the same occurred with 'truckdriver' Slutskaya, but I just don't remember. And I didn't follow the Kwan threads, which was likely where a lot of the Irina hating was expressed.

It's certainly been said that Plushenko is over-scored and he certainly received a lot of criticism for his arrogant behaviour at the 2010 Olympics. Even under 6.0 he was considered to be over-marked artistically by some. But, it seems to me that there was general consensus that he he rightfully dominated the field because of his jump content and consistency under 6.0. People may not have liked him, but it was difficult to say he wuz gifted under 6.0, especially given that he was chasing Yagudin for a good part of his career. IIRC even Dick Button, who is very opinionated, conceded that Plushenko was deserving of his top ranking position and I remember him saying that Plusheko was like Fred Astaire in that he "bamboozled the audience with his hands".

In 2006 Plusheko's Olympic performance was rather robotic and uninspired, but I don't recall anyone saying that Lambiel and Buttle should have won the title.

Flatt is definitely disliked and gets a lot of criticism (much of it unfair IMO) , but she's not a World Champion so doesn't get the attention that Chan does.

Chan seems to me among the most hated because of the volume of posts/threads that focus on his character faults as well as his inflated scores.

So this is my impression and opinion, which I have clearly presented as such in saying "it seems to me". I've not followed such equally long and negative threads about other skaters who were disliked equally or disliked more.

Of course, no one wants to count negative posts and threads about skaters to rank the most-hated on FSU, but if someone did, and Patrick came in fifth or whatever I'd have no issue with it.

Japanfan
03-26-2012, 01:06 AM
I can't help thinking if some skater came around with better skating skills than Patrick (could happen Chan fans) and said skater started winning with 4 falls, a program over a much cleaner Patrick, that a lot of Patrick's fans would be crying foul. I'm imagining now the Canadian press... :lol:


FYI, it is possible to be a fan of more than one skater. Even if one has a favourite, a discerning fan can understand why that person loses to another. Yes, even in the case of a clean Chan against someone with better basic skills.



At the end of the day my issue is if all that matters is skating skills, why have things like jumps and spins? Let them all skate around the ice, do moves in the field etc and be done with it.


Um, Patrick gets marks for his jumps and spins just like everyone else.



I actually do think in the end if the elements are close the best skater should really win. But I find the concept of someone winning with four falls in a competition (and people saying someone did more ROTATIONS as justification.. Why even have a competition then?


When did Chan win with four falls? The most I can remember would be three falls or three major mistakes. And Lambiel had wins with similar errors. In fact, I remember his coming back from a terrible SP to win Skate Canada in 2007 with something like five mistakes.

And rotations count, like it or not. And the base mark counts too. Takahashi has had a lower base mark than Chan this season. You can argue than Chan is over-marked in terms of PCS, but his technical scores are justifiable according to the system.


This is suppose to be a sport and delivering on the ice should matter. IMO. It bothers me that this system they have created says it doesn't. And that's why Chan fans are saying, right? The system says how clean you skate doesn't matter.


That is not what all Chan fans are saying. You can be a fan and still disagree with the judging. You can be a fan and still prefer your favourite to lose to a better skater in a strong field than win with a flawed performance in a weak field.

But when a skate with errors wins over a clean skate, the argument is almost always that the winning skate was more difficult, artistic or choreographically complex. There are innumerable examples of that, B&S versus S&P being the most the most immediately comes to mind.



I will say that I have a problem with any uber that is so much of an uber that they care more about their skater than this sport in general. I was totally a huge fan of Yu-na Kim, but that didn't mean I thought she deserved to win the Free at 2010 Worlds over Asada, sure Asada had technical issues of her own but Asada's PCS should have been much higher.


And Patrick fans can be equally capable of the same discernment.

agalisgv
03-26-2012, 01:39 AM
To give an example, some have said Patrick is cocky, rude and arrogant - which is about his personality and attitude, not the judges - and that his inflated scores only support his overly large ego and allow him to just coast along due to his 3-mistake advantage. I think you're mixing up conversations. You initially said Chan was one of the most disliked skaters ever. I (and others) said no, others have received far harsher treatment, and I said much of the criticisms are leveled at Chan's supporters. You responded that criticism is primarily focused on judging. I said that's true, but that's not criticism directed at Chan personally. The criticisms directed personally at Chan are comments regarding statements he's made over the years in various articles. And yes, some think he's cocky, etc.

But the discussions over his perceived cockiness tend to be separate from judging and COP discussions.