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skatingfan12
03-19-2012, 03:46 AM
I'm not an expert on COP so perhaps someone can give me perspective on this one.

I know it's hard to compare between the 6.0 system and COP, but with everything else staying the same, would the top five ladies in the 1998 Olympics (Lipinski, Kwan, Chen, Butyrskaya, Slutskaya) had been the same under results under the COP system?

Just looking at the top 2, Tara Lipinski had more difficulty in her jumps than other other ladies which would've increase her base value, but were they fully rotated and what about her levels in her spins?

How were Michelle Kwan's jumps in terms of being fully rotated? What levels would she have received in her spins?

I imagine Michelle Kwan would've beaten Tara Lipinski in program components.

Any thoughts????

briancoogaert
03-19-2012, 08:38 AM
We can't compare, but the only thing I can say is that Michelle had 8 jumping passes : only 7 are allowed under CoP. So, virtually, MK had one triple less than Tara.
Plus, Tara had faster spins.
I don't think Michelle has any underrotated jump, although Tara's 3Loop/3Loop looks short.
Anyway, TES is for Tara IMO.

Of course, I prefer MK's glide and choreography. It was a pleasure to watch her with this beautiful LP. ;)

PashaFan
03-19-2012, 10:13 AM
I'm happy you have started this thread as this is something I have always thought about-also what about Baiul & Kerrigan in 94'?.
For me this system rewards the technical more than the artistic so I'm thinking that Lipinski would still win.
Would Kwan's flip have had a deduction?.

alchemy void
03-19-2012, 11:39 AM
Lipinski
Kwan
Slutskaya
Butyrskaya
Lu

gkelly
03-19-2012, 11:44 AM
I tried calling and judging the 98 LPs for myself once a few years go and I came up with 1 Kwan, 2 Slutskaya, 3 Lipinski in the LP.

There's no "correct" answer, though, unless there's a huge difference between the performances.

One variable is which year's IJS rules we use for levels and throwing out extra elements.

And then there's room for different judgments on PCS and some of the GOEs.

demetriosj
03-19-2012, 12:22 PM
Lipinski's jumps were small and barely off the ground.

How would that fare with COP?

attyfan
03-19-2012, 12:30 PM
Also, what about the SP? The elements were the same for all, so Lipinski wouldn't have had the tech advantage she had in the FS. Could someone have gotten a big lead after the SP?

fsfan22
03-19-2012, 01:04 PM
Lipinski
Kwan
Slutskaya
Butyrskaya
Lu

^^ agreed based on TES (Lu would have been lower than 5th overall instead of 3rd IMO)

Kwan would outscore Lipinski on PCS, but it's hard to say by how much. I'd still give the edge to Lipinski based on her superior technical content.

gkelly
03-19-2012, 01:58 PM
Lipinski's jumps were small and barely off the ground.

How would that fare with COP?

For those that had good flow and were clearly fully rotated, she could have gotten 0 or possibly +1 GOE, but not higher than that.

Any < calls would lead to -GOE.

Bigger jumps by some of the other skaters might have earned +2 from the more generous judges.

Mafke
03-19-2012, 02:12 PM
We can't compare, but the only thing I can say is that Michelle had 8 jumping passes : only 7 are allowed under CoP. So, virtually, MK had one triple less than Tara.


Since they weren't competing under CoP I don't think that's relevant. All we can do is apply CoP standards to the elements that they did (that were legal at the time) and assume a version of CoP that allowed those jumps. Similarly spins are mostly going to have to be decided on GoE rather than levels since they weren't trying for levels (I can tell because neither lady's spins made me want to scratch my eyes out).

I'm not sure at all that Lipinski's 3r-3r would be ratified, especially under the incredibly anаl standards that have ruled much of CoP's existence. The very low height she achieved would also not help her GoE scores.

It's also hard to know what would have happened with edge calls....

antmanb
03-19-2012, 04:55 PM
Since they weren't competing under CoP I don't think that's relevant. All we can do is apply CoP standards to the elements that they did (that were legal at the time) and assume a version of CoP that allowed those jumps.

I guess you could say since they weren't competing under COP what's the point in trying to work out what it would have been like under COP at all. But if you are going to bother trying to evaluate it under COP you have to do something to make the performances comparable. I don't know how many jumping passes the other skaters had but if they don't all have 8 then there is no way to level the playing field in terms of TES earned by jumps. If you are going to ignore some of the COP rules but not others then it's also going to skew the comparison and make the comparison even more meaningless than it already is.

Mafke
03-19-2012, 05:10 PM
I guess you could say since they weren't competing under COP what's the point in trying to work out what it would have been like under COP at all.

If you are going to ignore some of the COP rules but not others then it's also going to skew the comparison and make the comparison even more meaningless than it already is
.

Well yeah, it's an academic exercise but potentially kind of interesting as long as you remember the limitations.

It also shows possible different directions CoP could have taken instead of the ugly mess it actually became. Again, academic but maybe interesting.

gkelly
03-19-2012, 05:25 PM
The thing is, if you judge it by 2006 rules you might get a different result than using 2010 rules or 2012. So there's never any real answer even if the "judges" keep the same GOEs and PCS for all versions.

Aussie Willy
03-19-2012, 09:33 PM
You can still look at giving GOEs to the elements and also components. And you could apply the rules of the day rather than trying to put the rules as they are now onto the event. Of course it it is difficult to try and apply levels when that is not what the skaters were trying to achieve back then.

bardtoob
03-19-2012, 10:00 PM
Kwan would have had a huge lead after the SP, much larger than just being 1st in the 6.0 "control your own destiny" scenario. I think she might have come in 2nd in the LP by less than her lead in the SP, therefore winning in a Scott Hamiliton sort of way . . . but this is just the same old debate in a new form.