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fenway2
03-21-2012, 07:48 PM
Irina's SP with a double lutz-double toe would have had her way behind. She may not have even made the final flight under COP.
Who might have beaten her for the final flight though?

gkelly
03-21-2012, 08:13 PM
Irina's SP with a double lutz-double toe would have had her way behind. She may not have even made the final flight under COP.


Who might have beaten her for the final flight though?

No one -- in fact I could see Slutskaya actually ending up 4th rather than 5th in the SP. If Chen's lutz was downgraded (<< in today's rules, even more likely by 2004-2010 rules), then they'd have the same base mark for that element, Slutskaya would get -3 GOE for the double, and Chen maybe -1s and -2s. So not much advantage there.

On the rest of the TES, and Skating Skills, I think Slutskaya had the advantage.

So then the question is whether that point or two of GOE plus the rest of the PCS would be enough keep Chen ahead in the short.

judgejudy27
03-21-2012, 08:27 PM
While even Chen's landed jumps were weak by Nagano (in comparision to the other top skaters) none of her jumps was underotated enough in her short to be downgraded. Plus her PCS in the short would definitely be higher than Slutskaya. So while Irina would probably score higher on almost all the other elements Chen would still beat her in the short. Bonaly would beat Slutskaya in the short under COP, the combination difference alone would have already been enough. Under COP I think Bonaly also beats Chen in the short. I did not see all the others but I heard Malinina skated clean, and did a triple lutz and triple flip, so probably her too.

Marco
03-22-2012, 04:24 AM
No one -- in fact I could see Slutskaya actually ending up 4th rather than 5th in the SP. If Chen's lutz was downgraded (<< in today's rules, even more likely by 2004-2010 rules), then they'd have the same base mark for that element, Slutskaya would get -3 GOE for the double, and Chen maybe -1s and -2s. So not much advantage there.

On the rest of the TES, and Skating Skills, I think Slutskaya had the advantage.

So then the question is whether that point or two of GOE plus the rest of the PCS would be enough keep Chen ahead in the short.

Even if Chen's lutz combo was ratified, Slutskaya could get a lot of the advantage back on the harder solo triple, higher GOEs due to more direct steps into the solo and variation on 2axel, and base mark and GOEs on the spins. Slutskaya's spins already had difficult variations in them. Chen's spins were simplistic and poorly done in comparison, and might have been short on revolution. Footwork goes to Slutskaya in terms of levels and execution. I don't remember either one's spiral sequence. :shuffle:

Chen would likely have come out ahead in overall PCS though. If the judges judged by the criteria, Slutskaya really should come out ahead on SS, TR and PE (but obviously trailing in CH and IN).

I could see Slutskaya and Chen quite neck and neck after the short, but significantly behind Kwan, Butyrskaya and Lipinski.

I would probably have given the final spot of the final group to Liashenko. -3 on a lip, but otherwise everything was great and the program was complex and beautifully skated.

hydro
03-22-2012, 04:55 PM
COP or Ordinals, it doesn't matter. They are both flawed judging systems. I think the flaws in COP would probably benefit MK more than Tara. By today's standards, Tara's skating is completely obsolete (small jumps, edge issues, URs, no flexibility).

query5
03-22-2012, 06:00 PM
tara jumps was very low-basically just got off the ground.
however through the update versions of youtube on internet -they look better than what they really was.
tara only did 5 jumps 1 jumping pass loop-loop=ratified-which shouldn't have been, edge call on lutz. other than than okay job. as far as artistry skills-was doable.
michelle had 7 jumps 2 -triple lutz-toe, flip-toe, not 8 jumps her artistry, change of edge on jumps, spirals and change spin directions might added points -who knows,
artistry-was good,

irina in 98 had no artistry-her spins wasn't centered-all over the ice,
so today back than can't compare.
why--
all skaters didn't plan programs for cop-they plan for 6.0's
who knows what would have happened. skated like 6.0's in other words you fall, screw up big time you don't medal- unlike today-screw up big time you can still win and medal.
different rules, different game plan.

leafygreens
03-22-2012, 11:24 PM
Yes. There's no reward under IJS just for doing a spin in the opposite direction from the skater's usual spin direction. The reward is to spin in both directions in the same spin. That's one feature toward a higher level for that spin -- if there's also one other feature, the spin would earn level 2; if there are three or four features in total it would earn level 3 or 4.

Even if what MK did was not exactly an IJS both-directions-spin, it at least shows that MK could spin in both directions and knowing her she likely would have cleaned it up by IJS standards if that's the system she was under.


My opinions on the Lipinksi/Kwan Olympic showdown aren't formed by biased sentimental speeches spoken at induction ceremonies. Also, please do not assume that I would ever think everything Scott Hamilton has to say is Bible.

I never said induction ceremonies or Scott Hamilton are the last word, but when multiple, high-ranking people make comments like they made, then it's obvious many others feel the same way as well, and that something fishy went on with the scoring.


Bonaly did not know how to skate between her jumps. She looked like she was skating on double runners. I saw no edge quality out there on her best nights. She telegraphed jumps from across the rink, stopped, braked, turned then launched herself into jumps landing in a jerky manner most of the time. She muscled every thing. She had some interesting artistic choices except for her attempt to copy Usova and Zhulin's Vivaldi "Four Season's" FD in one of her FS programs, even down to some of their movements which was laughable in the extreme. :rolleyes: That being said-I did like watching Bonaly in exhibition.

That Four Seasons program was awful. With the violins and jerky arm motions it was like watching the movie Psycho.


I clearly think of Tara as the better spinner, under COP it's all about getting the levels - not being elegant!

If this is true, then how does someone like Alissa (obviously elegant) get so many points for artistry after bombing the jumps?


tara jumps was very low-basically just got off the ground.
however through the update versions of youtube on internet -they look better than what they really was.
tara only did 5 jumps 1 jumping pass loop-loop=ratified-which shouldn't have been, edge call on lutz. other than than okay job. as far as artistry skills-was doable.
michelle had 7 jumps 2 -triple lutz-toe, flip-toe, not 8 jumps her artistry, change of edge on jumps, spirals and change spin directions might added points -who knows,
artistry-was good,

As much as I don't like Tara's skating, her 3loop/3loop looked legit to me. Not sure about the lutz...

Coco
03-23-2012, 12:44 AM
COP or Ordinals, it doesn't matter. They are both flawed judging systems. I think the flaws in COP would probably benefit MK more than Tara. By today's standards, Tara's skating is completely obsolete (small jumps, edge issues, URs, no flexibility).

Michelle's jumps weren't that much bigger, if we get right down to it.

Tara actually did a catchfoot camel, something I don't recall seeing from Michelle in a competitive program, so it's a toss up as to who was more flexible.

It would have been fascinating to see what MK, Frank & Lori came up with if COP had been in place in the nineties.

Under 6.0, it seemed that a good 3z was the glass ceiling. If you had one, you were taken seriously. But under COP, it seems to be skating skills, especially speed.

Ice coverage was one area that Tara really took it to Michelle in Nagano, so it would be interesting to see the marks if COP had been in effect.

falling_dance
03-23-2012, 01:16 AM
Tara actually did a catchfoot camel, something I don't recall seeing from Michelle in a competitive program, so it's a toss up as to who was more flexible.


Kwan's Lamente d'Ariane FS included a clockwise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzIMASKRm_4&t=3m18s) catchfoot camel.

Marco
03-23-2012, 06:36 AM
Kwan's Lamente d'Ariane FS included a clockwise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzIMASKRm_4&t=3m18s) catchfoot camel.

The earlier version of Song of the Black Swan also featured a catchfoot camel.