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professordeb
03-17-2012, 05:53 PM
I can agree with most of this post since part of it is simply stating the "rules".

Here is a question: more than one skater - Jeremy comes to mind -has said adding a quad to your program automatically increases the PCS.

A skater landing a quad or even falling on a quad often gets a boost in their PCS.

I am curious why this happens as I can't find it in the rules. :confused:

I chalk it up to the culture of reputation scoring - which IMO never changed much when the new scoring system was introduced.

A butt slide might get penalized according the the tech rules but does it really matter if the PCS scores are boosted enough to carry a skater through an off night?

A real flaw is the difference of opinion we see at times from the tech panel and the judges. In the NFL if a referree signals a TD but then gets overruled by instant replay there are no points awarded.

What would be the point to having instant replay if it didn't determine the outcome of a play?

I see a lack of logic when the tech panel makes one call only to have it ignored by judges awarding +GOE on a jump that received a downgrade.

Not sport, just a free-for-all with frequently puzzling scores.

Is it acceptable for a skater to have a jump or combo jump downgraded by the tech panel yet to still receive +GOE from certain judges?

Did the skater manage to pull off a a really good but flawed jump? :blah:

If the micro management of the IJS is ever going to work and gain back the public some consistency and better logic will be required.

Because in the NFL it's either a touchdown or not, there are no points for takeoff, position in the air, landing, technique or anything else -- it's one thing or the other. In figure skating, a there are multiple steps that get evaluated and that's why someone can still get points even when they fall. Please, read what other posters have so eloquently written about how things are marked in skating and stop trying to compare it to a sport that is yes/no.

beepbeep
03-17-2012, 07:33 PM
This thread :watch:

MrLucky
03-17-2012, 07:51 PM
Because in the NFL it's either a touchdown or not, there are no points for takeoff, position in the air, landing, technique or anything else -- it's one thing or the other. In figure skating, a there are multiple steps that get evaluated and that's why someone can still get points even when they fall. Please, read what other posters have so eloquently written about how things are marked in skating and stop trying to compare it to a sport that is yes/no.

OK, if you insist NFL expert. :)

Sorry, but football is not anywhere NEAR as cut and dry as your statements.

One foot in, one foot out, was he shoved, ,,,,,was there clear possesion, etc. becomes judges decisions.....was the knee down before .......yada, yada,

Fortunately the NFL uses replay and replay is the final word , unlike skating where a tech caller can call a jump short or call a wrong edge,////////but somehow the judges can ignore the tech panel call and reward +GOE.......YIKES!!

Do you have even the slightest idea of fairness in "sports" ??

If so you would know how odd your post seems to me......

The biggest difference between America's #1 sport (football) and it's biggest fading sport (skating) is the clarity of the calls.

From day one, the NFL decided FANS must see the same replay tape the officials see.

Why is it the EXACT OPPOSITE in figure skating?

Things are hidden for a reason......

MrLucky
03-17-2012, 08:08 PM
This thread :watch:

Brasilian expertise in figure skating can NOT be denied :

But apparently you are also an expert on NFL rules?

Somehow I highly doubt your credibilty on this point.

Good luck with your preparations for the WC......:cool:

julieann
03-17-2012, 08:31 PM
OK, if you insist NFL expert. :)

Sorry, but football is not anywhere NEAR as cut and dry as your statements.

One foot in, one foot out, was he shoved, ,,,,,was there clear possesion, etc. becomes judges decisions.....was the knee down before .......yada, yada,

Fortunately the NFL uses replay and replay is the final word , unlike skating where a tech caller can call a jump short or call a wrong edge,////////but somehow the judges can ignore the tech panel call and reward +GOE.......YIKES!!

Do you have even the slightest idea of fairness in "sports" ??

If so you would know how odd your post seems to me......

The biggest difference between America's #1 sport (football) and it's biggest fading sport (skating) is the clarity of the calls.

From day one, the NFL decided FANS must see the same replay tape the officials see.

Why is it the EXACT OPPOSITE in figure skating?

Things are hidden for a reason......

Maybe judges/tech panel should take more that 3 minutes to score the skaters.....would the fans like that?

Also judges/refs don't always get it right in skating or football and the benefit of the doubt will always go the skater/football team. Refs have made many mistakes that fans still talk about years later, no sport that uses judges/refs or umpires have clear cut calls, it's not possible because they are human.

geod2
03-17-2012, 08:49 PM
The biggest difference between America's #1 sport (football) and it's biggest fading sport (skating) is the clarity of the calls.As a fan of both football and FS (not an expert in each), I won't waste this thread's time by listing all the difference between the two sports.
You're entitled to your opinion, but don't forget the frequency of the competitions of NFL vs. FS.
Football fans get literally hundreds of games each season, with 60 minutes of playing time and dozens of plays each game.
The chances to reinforce the rules and nuances of officiating in the minds of fans are endless.
Football is a full contact sport based on a representation of battle. Aesthetics does not play a role.
That's why a team can appear to play poorly but still win....it's called "winning ugly".

Maybe the biggest difference between football and FS is the fans ...
...I've noticed that alcohol consumption plays a big role in football fans' devotion to their sport.. :lol: .




others are silly enough to assume that changing the scoring system magically made all the known cheaters/manipulators honest And in the spirit of your own words, you'll provide the evidence (instant replay) of their cheating/manipulation??
How about listing some names if they're "known"..... :rolleyes:





This thread :watch:
Brasilian expertise in figure skating can NOT be denied.But apparently you are also an expert on NFL rules?
Professordeb (Canadian) offered the football analogy, not our Brasilian member.

If you can't keep up, you'll have to sit in the corner with the kiddies...:P

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MrLucky
03-17-2012, 09:10 PM
As a fan of both football and FS (not an expert in each), I won't waste this thread's time by listing all the difference between the two sports.
You're entitled to your opinion, but don't forget the frequency of the competitions of NFL vs. FS.
Football fans get literally hundreds of games each seasons, with 60 minutes of playing time and dozens of plays each game.
The chance to reinforce the rules and nuances of officiating in the minds of fans is endless.
Football is a full contact sport game based on a representation of battle. Aesthetics does not play a role.
That's why a team can appear to play poorly but still win....it's called "winning ugly".


And in the spirit of your own words, you'll provide the evidence (instant replay) of their cheating/manipulation??
How about listing some names if they're "known".....




Professordeb (Canadian) offered the football analogy, not our Brasilian member.
If you can't keep up, you'll have to sit in the corner with the kiddies...:P

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Your post makes no sense to me at all.

It's like you have no knowledge of sports, the history of figure skating and are confused enough to think ISU shares instant replays with fans, which they DON'T!

Yet you feel some sort of indigninty that I see the discipline or contest/game that is figure skating as anything more than a beauty pageant. :blah:

I am sure I have watched long before you were born and see little differnce in the scoring system - indeed to me skating is still more pageant than sport.

When the tech panel actually has the authority by their calls to determine a score (and ISU has the "balls/INTEGRITY" to share the replay that determined such calls I will begin to think of CoP skating as a sport.

For now I can't take it seriously although I do enjoy a pageant as much as the next fellow from my generation. ;)

geod2
03-17-2012, 09:21 PM
I am sure I have watched long before you were born and see little differnce in the scoring system -

For now I can't take it seriously although I do enjoy a pageant as much as the next fellow from my generation. ;)

I am 59. Too bad for you if you watched before I was born...:lol:

Enjoy figure skating however you like! ;)

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MrLucky
03-17-2012, 09:48 PM
I am 59. Too bad for you if you watched before I was born...:lol:

Enjoy figure skating however however you like! ;)

-

Thankyou and I wish the same to you.

Aussie Willy
03-17-2012, 11:08 PM
I see a lack of logic when the tech panel makes one call only to have it ignored by judges awarding +GOE on a jump that received a downgrade.

Judges judge what they see. If a judge thinks that a jump is not downgraded then they are meant to mark accordingly and give the benefit of doubt to the skater. They do not have access to the slow motion replay that the technical panel have.

MrLucky
03-17-2012, 11:29 PM
Judges judge what they see. If a judge thinks that a jump is not downgraded then they are meant to mark accordingly and give the benefit of doubt to the skater. They do not have access to the slow motion replay that the technical panel have.

Thankyou, that is exactly my point.

Most sports would never have such a contradiction!

If an NFL judge misses a call and the replay shows he was wrong then too bad for bobo.

Aussie Willy
03-17-2012, 11:48 PM
Most sports would never have such a contradiction!

But skating is a subjectively judged sport that each individual judge can provide their own justifications on their decision making. So you are always going to have contradictions as a result.

If people were a bit more aware of that they would get less upset about the outcome of events. And most people get upset without doing any real analysis of them.

jettasian
03-18-2012, 03:56 AM
Is it acceptable for a skater to have a jump or combo jump downgraded by the tech panel yet to still receive +GOE from certain judges?


Um, it's possible. I believe in order to get +GOE, a jump must meet certain bullet points, such has height, take off etc. So if the jump meet a few points, yes, +GOE will still be there.

gkelly
03-18-2012, 12:02 PM
And if the jump just gets a < underrotation call.

Now that there are two separate calls, the << downgrade call requires negative GOE, so if a judge gives positive GOE then that judge made a mistake according to the rules.

professordeb
03-18-2012, 02:54 PM
OK, if you insist NFL expert. :)

Sorry, but football is not anywhere NEAR as cut and dry as your statements.

One foot in, one foot out, was he shoved, ,,,,,was there clear possesion, etc. becomes judges decisions.....was the knee down before .......yada, yada,

Fortunately the NFL uses replay and replay is the final word , unlike skating where a tech caller can call a jump short or call a wrong edge,////////but somehow the judges can ignore the tech panel call and reward +GOE.......YIKES!!

Do you have even the slightest idea of fairness in "sports" ??

If so you would know how odd your post seems to me......

The biggest difference between America's #1 sport (football) and it's biggest fading sport (skating) is the clarity of the calls.

From day one, the NFL decided FANS must see the same replay tape the officials see.

Why is it the EXACT OPPOSITE in figure skating?

Things are hidden for a reason......

Again you are twisting or misunderstanding what I am saying. I am using the comparision of the NFL -- that's the American version of football and not to be confused with the the European version of football which we in Canada call soccer.

Once it is determined a play is a touchdown or not (whether or not video replay is used) you either get the full 6 points or you get none. You don't get partial points for being partially in the end zone. Either enough of you is in or you are not. Once a determination is made whether the play is good you get the points or not.

However, in figure skating you CAN get marks for what you did correctly before you made a mistake. THAT is where the difference lies -- or at least that is the point I was trying to make. One sport gives points only once it is determined that the "try was good" while another gives points for things done and subtracts for things done incorrectly.

Would you care to get off your high horse now? :lol: