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gingercat
03-13-2012, 05:27 PM
An interesting fact. ISU has video's for judges to watch showing the ideal and not so ideal to look for and to reward. Sad to say they use current skaters for these demonstrations. Does this sway the eyes of some of the judes? If you know who they use and you see the results never changing - I say absolutley YES!

VALuvsMKwan
03-13-2012, 05:40 PM
A lot of the skaters mentioned above are judges' favorites because they actually skate well. Imagine that!

Think about this - if they weren't better than the norm, why would they have become the judges' favorites? Unless 5Ai3 is right & there is a dartboard in some back room.

Have we forgotten KONSPIRACY and POLITIK so soon? :sekret: :bloc: :bribe: :puppet: :drama: :blocjudge

jettasian
03-13-2012, 06:25 PM
Judges have their favourties, that's for sure. But does that equate to judging bias?

mia joy
03-13-2012, 06:53 PM
People, please. Some of you sound like you actually believe the judging is always fair and never subjective :rolleyes:

Yes, those skaters mentioned do skate well. But so do some others and yet sometimes we feel it's the wrong one on top of the podium. This is when judges play favourites.

briancoogaert
03-13-2012, 07:12 PM
People, please. Some of you sound like you actually believe the judging is always fair and never subjective :rolleyes:

Yes, those skaters mentioned do skate well. But so do some others and yet sometimes we feel it's the wrong one on top of the podium. This is when judges play favourites.
I agree with you.
But for some skaters, there are objective facts that they are overscored on some PCS. ;)

UGG
03-13-2012, 07:15 PM
People, please. Some of you sound like you actually believe the judging is always fair and never subjective :rolleyes:

Yes, those skaters mentioned do skate well. But so do some others and yet sometimes we feel it's the wrong one on top of the podium. This is when judges play favourites.

So then the question is actually "Who are skaters that get held up", not who are judges favorites.

gkelly
03-13-2012, 07:35 PM
Well, of course individual judges have biases and sometimes favorite skaters.

But that kind of favoritism will vary with the individual judges and they'll cancel each other out.

When all the judges score a certain skater higher than jump content or artistic appeal to fans would suggest, it's more likely in response to something about the actual skating that may not translate well on video than to all the judges getting together and conspiring to overmark that skater.

Seerek
03-13-2012, 08:22 PM
It works on both sides of the coin - the Technical Elements as well as the Component Scores.

COP allows judges to have possibly a big influence by applying very positive GOEs for a skater's completed elements (effect multiplied by up to 12-13 in the long program) just as much as applying inflated component marks...

luna_skater
03-13-2012, 08:49 PM
When all the judges score a certain skater higher than jump content or artistic appeal to fans would suggest, it's more likely in response to something about the actual skating that may not translate well on video than to all the judges getting together and conspiring to overmark that skater.

THIS.

Leticia
03-13-2012, 09:44 PM
Well, of course individual judges have biases and sometimes favorite skaters.

But that kind of favoritism will vary with the individual judges and they'll cancel each other out.

When all the judges score a certain skater higher than jump content or artistic appeal to fans would suggest, it's more likely in response to something about the actual skating that may not translate well on video than to all the judges getting together and conspiring to overmark that skater.

yeah, but can you say that about 2008 world Kostner's second finish, or 2010 world Lepisto's third finish? I heard lots of booing from the crowd who were watching their actrual skating.

Braulio
03-13-2012, 10:09 PM
I agree with you.
But for some skaters, there are objective facts that they are overscored on some PCS. ;)

Plushenko´s (non-existent) Transitions for example

:rolleyes:

Vagabond
03-13-2012, 10:11 PM
yeah, but can you say that about 2008 world Kostner's second finish, or 2010 world Lepisto's third finish? I heard lots of booing from the crowd who were watching their actrual skating.

Blades across the ice.

As has been said time and again on this board, Kostner and Lepistö have some of the best basics of any skaters of the CoP era. Those who were booing may have been watching their jumping instead of their skating. The judges look at both.

Also, with respect to 2008, much of the booing was due to fans' perception that the fourth-place finisher, Yukari Nagano, had landed a triple axel in the Free Skate. The jump was marked as underrotated.

geod2
03-13-2012, 10:29 PM
Well, of course individual judges have biases and sometimes favorite skaters.

But that kind of favoritism will vary with the individual judges and they'll cancel each other out.

When all the judges score a certain skater higher than jump content or artistic appeal to fans would suggest, it's more likely in response to something about the actual skating that may not translate well on video than to all the judges getting together and conspiring to overmark that skater.

What you say makes total sense and they cancel each other out the overwhelming majority of the time, and if they don't it isn't noticeable and doesn't really matter.
But with only 9 judges it's mathematically possible for an imbalance in the bias of the judging panel that isn't cancelled out by others on the same panel to make a difference that is very noticeable to many fans. Someone mentioned Lepisto's bronze at 2010 Worlds. She edged out Miki Ando by 0.8 points for that bronze.
It doesn't take much non-cancelled out bias for that to have happened (I'm not saying it did happen).

The main points are still:
1. Judges are only human not machines.
2. Their natural, unavoidable bias cancel each other out or don't matter in the overwhelming number of competitions
3. Some fans have a bias toward remembering only the few times when they think (but have no proof) that judge bias affected the standing/medals/results.
4. The correct judging of skaters based on the quality of their performances is the norm to such a degree that obsessing about the few exceptions is pointless.
5. Natural human bias is NOT the same thing as konspiracy.

-

DarrellH
03-13-2012, 10:30 PM
I agree with you.
But for some skaters, there are objective facts that they are overscored on some PCS. ;)

The Mike Pike?:D

kwanette
03-13-2012, 10:31 PM
Your analysis of the Adam/Ross scenarios make no sense to me.

Adam was 7th after the sp at 4CC. He barely missed the bronze. And his PCS should have been 5+ over Ross at Nats. I don't see the favoritism.