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View Full Version : Was It A Mistake To Send Czisny & Abbott to the Challenge Cup?



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manleywoman
03-14-2012, 07:15 PM
Three weeks before Worlds isn't that close, . . .

We'll agree to disagree on that. :)

RD
03-14-2012, 07:17 PM
Maybe not by itself, but when you factor in the travel involved for both these competitions (for Czisny & Abbott), it's really not that much time (goes by very quickly).

Zemgirl
03-14-2012, 08:01 PM
Maybe not by itself, but when you factor in the travel involved for both these competitions (for Czisny & Abbott), it's really not that much time (goes by very quickly).
For them, that may be true. However, I was responding to the suggestion that the ISU should not have sanctioned a competition at this point in the season. It's not the best timing for everyone, but for some skaters it's a great opportunity. I don't see any problem with smaller comps taking place in the month before Worlds; it's up to the skaters, coaches and federations to work out the best game plan.

kwanfan1818
03-14-2012, 08:13 PM
It's up to the skaters and their federations and teams to decide whether to participate. The ISU doesn't force anyone to skate three weeks before Worlds.

It's an important slot for any team/skater that had to sit out a season/two seasons and couldn't qualify until after Euros or 4C's. It's not a bad tune-up for European skaters before Worlds, with few jet-lag issues and often decent travel times. Most of the competitors taking part don't compete at Worlds.

Triple Butz
03-14-2012, 08:13 PM
For them, that may be true. However, I was responding to the suggestion that the ISU should not have sanctioned a competition at this point in the season. It's not the best timing for everyone, but for some skaters it's a great opportunity. I don't see any problem with smaller comps taking place in the month before Worlds; it's up to the skaters, coaches and federations to work out the best game plan.

Right, it's up to the skaters to decide how close is too close to a major championship. Many of the world's top skaters do back-to-back Grand Prix Events and handle it just fine. If you're not one of them, don't go! ;)

judgejudy27
03-15-2012, 12:41 AM
You make it seem like Mirai was lucky to have finished 4th at the Olympics. It would have been a travesty if Rachael had finished ahead of Mrai in Vancouver. As for Ando and Lepisto she beat those two girls fair and square. In fact Mirai's performance would have gotten her a medal in most any other Winter Olympics in the last 20 years or so but she picked the wrong Olympics to skate so well since everyone in the last group skated great.

I agree it would have been wrong if Flatt beat Nagasu in Vancouver but the protocals prove without her 2 downgrades (both which were questionable) she would have. This despite that her jumps in the short proram were shaky too, and despite it being the competition of Nagasu's life. So if the judges were willing to place Flatt of all people above Nagasu at her best, what on earth makes you think Wagner at her best would have no chance. Nagasu is very talented but she has never worked hard enough or been consistent enough for long enough to gain judges rep points, or become the skater she could be.

Wagner skating like she did at 4CCs (which is likewise the competition of her life to date) would definitely be able to beat any version of Czisny or Nagasu, especialy if those performances were done today (being U.S Champion and having the current momentum gives her an intangible edge with the judges to the other two that they had at other times as well).

Ziggy
03-15-2012, 07:40 AM
What's the rationale behind having top skaters peak twice in 3 weeks?

Why do you assume that coaches expected their skaters to peak at this event?

It was probably more of a "form check" and possibly also an opportunity to try some things out and see how they work under pressure before making final decisions for Worlds.


I'm wondering why the ISU would let anyone schedule an event like this so close to Worlds.

:rolleyes:

Just in case you didn't realise, the majority of skaters are never going to compete at Worlds. So it's nice to also have other competitions they can take part in, don't you think?

And National federations are free to organise events when they want.

They are also free to enter or not enter skaters to those international events.

Contrary to some of Sonia Bianchetti's mad ramblings, ISU isn't a stalinist regime. :P

geod2
03-15-2012, 08:53 AM
Why do you assume that coaches expected their skaters to peak at this event?

It was probably more of a "form check" and possibly also an opportunity to try some things out and see how they work under pressure before making final decisions for Worlds.



:rolleyes:

Just in case you didn't realise, the majority of skaters are never going to compete at Worlds. So it's nice to also have other competitions they can take part in, don't you think?

And National federations are free to organise events when they want.

They are also free to enter or not enter skaters to those international events.

Contrary to some of Sonia Bianchetti's mad ramblings, ISU isn't a stalinist regime. :P


^^^ Spot on !

;)

-

Susan M
03-15-2012, 05:30 PM
And National federations are free to organise events when they want.
This is true, but if the event involves skaters from other countries, it does still need to be sanctioned by the ISU to preserve the participants' eligibility. That essentially gives the ISU the ability to veto the host country's event.

Why Abbott and Czisny opted to go is still a good question. Was this a money making opportunity for the participants?

Maybe they just didn't think the travel would be that disruptive to their Worlds preparations. From the East Coast of the US, the flight to Western Europe is only an hour or two longer than flying to the West Coast (five time zones vs three). I guess you need to add another hour from Michigan.

I wonder if they considered remaining in Europe and training there between the two events. That's what skaters will often do if the events involved two trips to or from Asia.

Ziggy
03-15-2012, 06:15 PM
I wonder if they considered remaining in Europe and training there between the two events. That's what skaters will often do if the events involved two trips to or from Asia.

Yes, that was definitely a factor. I'm sure.

This way by the time Worlds roll around, jet lag is long gone.

RD
03-15-2012, 06:33 PM
Again, we won't really know if taking part in the Challenge cup was a good idea for the top participants until after worlds. How well this competition prepared them for it, or how much of a tune-up it turned out to be, is unknown at this point.

Hopefully for Czisny & Abbott, it was a chance to get the nerves out of the way so they can do much better at worlds. I'd hate for it to have been a sign of fatigue...(or just further proof that Czisny at least is totally off her game this season)

Jammers
03-15-2012, 09:46 PM
I agree it would have been wrong if Flatt beat Nagasu in Vancouver but the protocals prove without her 2 downgrades (both which were questionable) she would have. This despite that her jumps in the short proram were shaky too, and despite it being the competition of Nagasu's life. So if the judges were willing to place Flatt of all people above Nagasu at her best, what on earth makes you think Wagner at her best would have no chance. Nagasu is very talented but she has never worked hard enough or been consistent enough for long enough to gain judges rep points, or become the skater she could be.

Wagner skating like she did at 4CCs (which is likewise the competition of her life to date) would definitely be able to beat any version of Czisny or Nagasu, especialy if those performances were done today (being U.S Champion and having the current momentum gives her an intangible edge with the judges to the other two that they had at other times as well).
That's why at Worlds in 2010 after the SP Mirai was in the lead over almost a full field that competed at the Olympics just a month earlier. No rep points eh? The Mirai that skated from Nationals through the SP at Worlds would beat Ashley right now. She was a contender who the judges were now willing to give big scores to0 even against the likes of Kim and Mao and Ando despite her inexperience as a Senior internationally. Only Mirai kept herself from winning Worlds that year by blowing up in the LP. And the field was stronger then what Wagner will face in Nice.

judgejudy27
03-15-2012, 10:44 PM
That's why at Worlds in 2010 after the SP Mirai was in the lead over almost a full field that competed at the Olympics just a month earlier. No rep points eh?

Actually you only prove my point so thanks. Nagasu had rep points at Worlds AFTER skating so well at Nationals (despite losing to Flatt) and then skating the performances of her life at the Olympics. Even at the Olympics itself she didnt have any, which is why she was beaten by a huge margin by Rochette who didnt even skate her best and who some thought Nagasu skated better then, and would have even lost to Flatt without her 2 downgrades. The judges didnt immediately give her any huge scores when she started skating well, she needed a strong season of skating, and several excellent performances until they finally did. If she skated well tommorow it would be a similar case, she wont regain the kind of momentum she had going into the 2010 Worlds and that Wagner has now without a string of strong performances, period.

By the way the field at the 2010 Worlds was not the same as the 2010 Olympics. An Olympic medalist was missing, so how can you say everyone was there, unless you consider Rochette a nobody. Not to mention Kim was sleepwalking at Worlds (and still won silver and the LP), and Worlds in general was one of the biggest splatfests ever, hence a 3 triple Lepisto winning the bronze medal.

Speaking of Nagasu's LP of a lifetime at the Olympics, it was still scored lower than Wagner's 4CCs LP, despite that the Olympics was one of the most generous scoring events ever, as shown by Kim's 150 which probably wont be reached by another skater for decades to come.

kwanfan1818
03-15-2012, 11:03 PM
At the Olympics, Nagasu was 7+ points behind Rochette at the end of the SP, with about 5.5 of those points a PCS bump. She had the highest TES after the top three, marginally higher than Ando. In the FS, Nagasu had the second-highest TES, over Asada and substantially under Kim, and her PCS rose substantially from her SP, from 6.69 avg. to 7.57 avg.

At Worlds, her PCS for the SP averaged 7.55 and dropped to 7.13 with her 11th place FS. That with such a drop in TES after being in medal contention, she still averaged higher than a 7 and nearly half a point avg. PCS higher than for her excellent SP in Vancouver, showed that she had some currency with the judges after the Olympics.

judgejudy27
03-16-2012, 04:28 AM
At the Olympics, Nagasu was 7+ points behind Rochette at the end of the SP, with about 5.5 of those points a PCS bump. She had the highest TES after the top three, marginally higher than Ando. In the FS, Nagasu had the second-highest TES, over Asada and substantially under Kim, and her PCS rose substantially from her SP, from 6.69 avg. to 7.57 avg.

At Worlds, her PCS for the SP averaged 7.55 and dropped to 7.13 with her 11th place FS. That with such a drop in TES after being in medal contention, she still averaged higher than a 7 and nearly half a point avg. PCS higher than for her excellent SP in Vancouver, showed that she had some currency with the judges after the Olympics.

Very true. After skating pretty well in her fall events (despite not impressing the judges then), skating very well at Nationals, and skating spectacularly at the Olympics, she finally had earned some cred with the judges by Worlds. That is pretty much my whole point. You dont instantly get it just by skating well once. It was the same with Wagner this year, she had to skate well all season and win Nationals until she began getting the scores.