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feraina
04-01-2012, 12:11 AM
Carolina has had many sad skates - the Olympics in Torino for one - and she finally won a World gold medal.

Carolina always had amazing power/speed in her skating, plus really strong jumps. She had a WC bronze medal at 17 or something! And won silver and bronze subsequently before this year. She was clearly a head case with the technical goods.

Alissa never had strong jumps, or power/speed for that matter. Plus a head case on top of that. That much less margin to make errors...

smarts1
04-01-2012, 12:43 AM
Makarova still bombed though :shuffle:.

Just sayin....

Just like feraina said, at least that subpar team received three spots AGAIN to next year's Worlds. I don't think anyone would even argue that a team of Makarova and Leonova are any better than a team of Wagner and Alissa, and yet this is the second year in a row they've managed to get three spots to Worlds. This is such a joke. I think the other thing USFSA needs to do is subsidize sports psychologists for many of our singles skaters. It's so frustrating and really strange that these skaters, in fact, the top US mens and ladies skaters are such big headcases and can't consistently deliver at their level. It really is unacceptable and I find it surprising they haven't tried to get help for their mental issues.

bek
04-01-2012, 01:03 AM
Just like feraina said, at least that subpar team received three spots AGAIN to next year's Worlds. I don't think anyone would even argue that a team of Makarova and Leonova are any better than a team of Wagner and Alissa, and yet this is the second year in a row they've managed to get three spots to Worlds. This is such a joke. I think the other thing USFSA needs to do is subsidize sports psychologists for many of our singles skaters. It's so frustrating and really strange that these skaters, in fact, the top US mens and ladies skaters are such big headcases and can't consistently deliver at their level. It really is unacceptable and I find it surprising they haven't tried to get help for their mental issues.

I don't know if the problem is just mental issues. Flatt's never been a headcase but she had a bad skate last year. Maybe nationals shouldn't be the be end/all but then again based on everyone's performance leading up to Nationals I thought Wagner/Alissa was the best team.

I suspect the real issue here for the ladies is no monitoring.... The USFSA should have been monitoring Rachael's skates and so noticed she was that injured. They should have been deeply concerned after Challenge Cup for Alissa.

I have no doubt the Russians would have replaced Ksensia if she was skating like Alissa did at Challenge Cup.

And maybe its time for the USFSA to also think strategy. I thought not going with Shelepen was stupid (although maybe it was). But the technical controller saying they felt 2 experienced one inexperienced might be the smarter way to go-made a whole lot of sense. Perhaps its time to look at performances as a whole. But then again you can get someone like Miner who everyone was screaming about last year, who was coming off injuries in the GP and has gone on to show he really is one of the most consistent of US men. Like him or hate him.

smarts1
04-01-2012, 01:12 AM
Flatt's case was extremely different, IMO. But I don't think anyone would try to argue that Jeremy, Mirai, Agnes, and Alissa aren't headcases. I know a lot of people are placing blame on the Sato/Dunjgen (don't know if I spelled that right) camp, but quite honestly, when you're working with some of the biggest headcases in the history of figure skating, your skaters are definitely going to have some (if not many) bad skates. Honestly though, Alissa should have went to see a sports psychologist a long time ago. If she can still stand up on her jumps in practice, then all of the problems she has had are in her mind. They have done wonders for many other skaters and they probably can do wonders for her.

triple_toe
04-01-2012, 01:14 AM
Alissa was bad. Seriously bad, the worst performance I've ever seen in skating ever. To the point where I'm really concerned about her. She's always been inconsistent but this was dreadful. I don't even care what exactly is going on with her, but I hope everything is ok in her personal life. Yes she messed up but I can't kick her when she's so down. I really think there's something going on, whether it's external issues or just a serious crisis in self-confidence, but whatever it is I hope she recovers. Hugs to her.

feraina
04-01-2012, 01:14 AM
I think the other thing USFSA needs to do is subsidize sports psychologists for many of our singles skaters. It's so frustrating and really strange that these skaters, in fact, the top US mens and ladies skaters are such big headcases and can't consistently deliver at their level. It really is unacceptable and I find it surprising they haven't tried to get help for their mental issues.

That's a good point. I think Russia provides a lot more free or subsidized services to their top skaters than USFSA.

I thought Alissa's coaches' reactions in the K&C looked really odd, btw. Yuka seemed perfectly composed and smiled for the camera. Jason sort of did as well. Only Alissa was really upset sitting in the middle. It was a stark contrast. Her coaches didn't look upset or angry or sad, or even in the least sympathetic. Maybe they expected this outcome given her practices, but they hardly gave her any sympathy or encouragement or consolation. I have a feeling that something might really not be working right in their coaching relationship.

I have my personal pet theory about what that might be... but it's too "crazy" to air. But I would not be surprised if Alissa changes coaches or retires after this.

ks1227
04-01-2012, 01:18 AM
They didn't have a whole lot of options, though did they? They were smart though even though I said they should maybe go with Shelepen to think 2 experienced one inexperienced was the best way to go.

:confused:
But (a) if Russia didn't really have "a whole lot of options," why are you using them as a good example of the value of a qualifying skate? (Although actually, I'm not convinced that we had a lot of other options either. :shuffle:)
And (b) if the relevant criterion is going to be to send the more experienced skaters, as Russia did, wouldn't Czisny have been a lock for one of the two positions anyway? Who has more experience in the current US crop?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your suggestion that USFSA should implement some kind of qualifying skate, but your particular rationale for it here seems a little ... questionable.

demetriosj
04-01-2012, 01:31 AM
WTF is wrong with you? Did she judge her own performances and those of other skaters in those competitions and post the scores that she and they received?

No. The judges did, and were always more than forgiving of her horrible jumps.

She has gotten used to them overlooking all of the flaws in her jump technique.

She's lucky she's gotten as far as she has all of these years.

She has been held up way too many times.

demetriosj
04-01-2012, 01:31 AM
WTF is wrong with you? Did she judge her own performances and those of other skaters in those competitions and post the scores that she and they received?

No. The judges did, and were always more than forgiving of her horrible jumps.

She has gotten used to them overlooking all of the flaws in her jump technique.

She's lucky she's gotten as far as she has all of these years.

She has been held up way too many times.

bek
04-01-2012, 01:42 AM
:confused:
But (a) if Russia didn't really have "a whole lot of options," why are you using them as a good example of the value of a qualifying skate? (Although actually, I'm not convinced that we had a lot of other options either. :shuffle:)
And (b) if the relevant criterion is going to be to send the more experienced skaters, as Russia did, wouldn't Czisny have been a lock for one of the two positions anyway? Who has more experience in the current US crop?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your suggestion that USFSA should implement some kind of qualifying skate, but your particular rationale for it here seems a little ... questionable.

Well lets see maybe because the Russians look at results after Nationals/results before. For example, look at how you have US ladies placing higher at Four Continents than world team members. Zhang was the highest placing US lady a couple of years back, but not on the World team, as was Nagasu last year. The Russians look at how their skaters are skating before worlds and will replace them if necessary.

Do you really think Piseev would have sent an injured Flatt last year, or would have said sure Czisny go onto Worlds after that performance at Challenge Cup. I don't.

The least they could do is monitor their athletes condition.

chipso1
04-01-2012, 02:30 AM
I know she's denied it, but I have to believe Alissa is still injured in some way, or has a new injury since Nationals. Yeah, she's a headcase, but even the worst headcases don't go out and fall 7 times in an event unless something is wrong. Equipment issues? Injury? I just think there's more than her mental focus affecting her right now. She's usually fab in practices, and even struggled in those all week in Nice.

bek
04-01-2012, 02:32 AM
I know she's denied it, but I have to believe Alissa is still injured in some way, or has a new injury since Nationals. Yeah, she's a headcase, but even the worst headcases don't go out and fall 7 times in an event unless something is wrong. Equipment issues? Injury? I just think there's more than her mental focus affecting her right now. She's usually fab in practices, and even struggled in those all week in Nice.

Which is exactly why I'm saying-monitoring.

chipso1
04-01-2012, 02:36 AM
Which is exactly why I'm saying-monitoring.

I agree with you. I posted in the other thread about my monitoring solution since I don't think it really belonged in this one. ;)

RD
04-01-2012, 02:43 AM
Well lets see maybe because the Russians look at results after Nationals/results before. For example, look at how you have US ladies placing higher at Four Continents than world team members. Zhang was the highest placing US lady a couple of years back, but not on the World team, as was Nagasu last year. The Russians look at how their skaters are skating before worlds and will replace them if necessary.

Does USFS need to start doing that?

I think so...make it clear in the rules, etc...but if they are to begin using 4CCs as an additional qualifier...to make it fair, they need to move Nationals back to early January so there is at least 4 weeks between Natls and 4CCs.

But what should the "new method" be? Nothing is guaranteed...I suppose you could send the champ for sure (no judging favoritism!) and then, if necessary, send 2nd and 3rd ranked skaters to do a skateoff for the other spot. This wasn't necessary during the Kwan/Cohen days because after them, there was a huge dropoff in talent, so sending just the top 2/3 worked. But now that there is more depth, perhaps USFS should consider multiple layers of qualification in addition to just Nationals...

__

OR, much simpler- they could keep the status quo but actually monitor the athletes who are given spots (and the alternates as well). If one of them gets injured, begins underperforming (and I don't mean just a slightly bumpy patch, I'm talking Czisny-meltdown Challenge Cup type of skate) then they are expendable and will be replaced with someone who IS ready.

I just don't see much leadership on part of USFS, at least when it comes to taking charge of our athletes and our skating program. Czisny's meltdown reflected poorly not only on her, but on them as well. Do they even realize that?

Lacey
04-01-2012, 02:44 AM
I thought Alissa's coaches' reactions in the K&C looked really odd, btw. Yuka seemed perfectly composed and smiled for the camera. Jason sort of did as well. Only Alissa was really upset sitting in the middle. It was a stark contrast. Her coaches didn't look upset or angry or sad, or even in the least sympathetic. Maybe they expected this outcome given her practices, but they hardly gave her any sympathy or encouragement or consolation. I have a feeling that something might really not be working right in their coaching relationship.

I have my personal pet theory about what that might be... but it's too "crazy" to air. But I would not be surprised if Alissa changes coaches or retires after this.

Maybe they have already decided to split...for reasons not apparent to us...

I don't think she's injured, we saw her landing things in the warmups.

But I wonder if she will retire. It would be so hard to come back from that...unless she starts over somewhere else.