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Karpenko
03-17-2012, 07:53 AM
^ Although if she skates two clean performances, she will have even higher PCS and could end up with a medal, which would help her chances to make the Olympic team a lot.

:lol:

No pressure Alissa - it'll just be like a night out in vegas, but with your career as the money!!

:scream:

maureenfarone
03-17-2012, 02:58 PM
I really wonder if Alissa's problems in FS were made worse at Challenge Cup by changing the jump layout. She seems to have such a lack of confidence in her technique that changing the layout may have really rattled her.

JMO.

RD
03-17-2012, 03:46 PM
No pressure Alissa - it'll just be like a night out in vegas, but with your career as the money!!

:lol:

But does anyone even know if Czisny plans to continue beyond this season? She's definitely not getting any younger and it seems that after years of managing to avoid major injury, the mileage is finally starting to catch up to her body. Not sure if she can take it much longer to be honest.

If Alyssa tanks, I agree- if she does continue it's going to be a bit harder to remain relevant. OTOH, if she can pull out a decent result, that would definitely be key (and also break another trend of a truly UP-then-DOWN season).


Still it is best for her to go. The alternate is not Zhang or Gold as many wish it were, but Agnes, who is almost as certain to bomb and wont score as highly if she does.

Absolutely, been saying this for a while now.


Yes we really are damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Sadly, I think that's the case. Maybe it's just not meant to be, you know...

Nomad
03-17-2012, 03:51 PM
Didn't she change the jump layout of her LP at just about every competition this season? I thought someone had laid it all out for us but can't remember where that post is.

Sylvia
03-17-2012, 03:58 PM
Didn't she change the jump layout of her LP at just about every competition this season? I thought someone had laid it all out for us but can't remember where that post is.
Found geod's post earlier in this thread: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3508663&postcount=87

RD, I know you're probably used to typing her first name with a 'y' but it's spelled Alissa. :)

RD
03-17-2012, 04:16 PM
RD, I know you're probably used to typing her first name with a 'y' but it's spelled Alissa. :)

yeah, sorry, I've gotten into the habit I guess. Everyone I know with that name spells it with y (think that's the more common way?) so it's become an automatic thing for me when I type.

Nomad
03-17-2012, 05:00 PM
Thanks, Sylvia. When I read that post, I thought that the constant layout changes could be contributing to her less than stellar peformances. How can you skate a progeram well if you're constantly changing the major elements?

Dilng
03-17-2012, 05:08 PM
Being healthy does not ensure her skating consistently or landing all the jumps, something she rarely does even healthy.

Still it is best for her to go. The alternate is not Zhang or Gold as many wish it were, but Agnes, who is almost as certain to bomb and wont score as highly if she does.

So true!! Alissa is a beautiful girl with beautiful spins but her jumps have never been great, she skates slow and most of her programs are just ok for me. Even if she is healthy I doubt that she would win a medal at Worlds. I hope she moves on to SOI next season as she would be great in that area.

RD
03-17-2012, 05:29 PM
^ she doesn't even need to medal (although that would be nice, of course). Just do well enough to place in top 7

olympic
03-17-2012, 06:02 PM
^ she doesn't even need to medal (although that would be nice, of course). Just do well enough to place in top 7

Now, with Korpi also out of Worlds, it will be that much easier.

pinky166
03-17-2012, 08:52 PM
^ she doesn't even need to medal (although that would be nice, of course). Just do well enough to place in top 7

Honestly the field is pretty weak this year so even if Alissa is off, she should be fine, so long as she's not totally bombing a la GPF or Challenge Cup. Carolina, Mao, Akiko, Ashley I expect to finish ahead of her, but beyond that, you have skaters like Korobeynikova, Leonova, Gedevanishvilli, Murakami, and Helgesson, who if they skate well could place ahead of an ok-Alissa, but it really could go either way. Even if they were to all beat her, that would be 10th place, so if Ashley was 3rd or higher, which honestly I can see happening, that would be 3 spots. Realistically though not all the girls in that second group will place ahead of Alissa though, unless Alissa bombs again, but none of them are super consistent this season anyways. Of course you could have upsets from someone like Silete the power jumper, Lacoste, Kexin Zhang, Makarova, but none have very strong PCS so Alissa would really need to tank in TES to wind up below them. Idk. I think it will be ok. The 4 I mentioned will likely beat her and then probably maybe 2-3 of those in the second group of five I mentioned, so realistically, if Alissa can skate even like a 4 triple program, she should finish around 7th or 8th and then that should be enough.

Jammers
03-17-2012, 09:06 PM
I won't be saying anything considering in 2010 after the SP it seemed almost impossible for the US to not lock up that third spot. We all know what happened in the LP.

geod2
03-17-2012, 10:17 PM
Just based on the Ladies podium poll

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=82338

in the collective opinions of poll participants the most likely outcome is Czisny 4th, Wagner 5th.
That's how I interpret it based on votes cast for each skater in descending order.

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fan5
03-20-2012, 01:52 PM
That's true, but the subtle approach only works when you're completely in control and not skating like a deer in the headlights. See...

Jeff Buttle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSbTaxPgexA)
Daisuke Takahashi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKj69pyeY38)
Matt Savoie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFAsNpBJbk0)
Michelle Kwan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpogyNs298o)
Katia Gordeeva (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fh3nQhwJCc)

Note in all these programs, the skating itself is still quite complex, nuanced, but full of transitions and steps...

I see what you mean and agree that's how Johnny skated his Valse Triste with skill and complexity. When I suggested that Virtue & Moir and Czisny were subtle it was regarding their skating interpretation of the music as well as their media interactions. I don't follow them closely enough to really know but just looking at the way Alissa's team has listed the music as La Valse Triste and, as in Sylvia's post, Czisny simply saying her choreographer picked it out and that she trusts him and loves it, doesn't steer (push) us much as to what the piece means to Alissa and her team. They will say it on the ice.

So as a fan of skating with a little watching and listening it's possible to speculate for instance on the exact piece, which might be from this DVD of a live performance in Paris in 2008 listing it as --

Kuolema: Valse triste, Op. 44 no 1 by Jean Sibelius

Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Chamber Orchestra of Europe
Period: Romantic
Written: 1903-1904; Finland

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp;jsessionid=7188FDB09DFBAFD22807F6DD94E08 4E0?album_id=504841

on video --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7919jk9wFU

For me, the way the piece is listed as Kuolema first, the song Valse Triste incidental to it, tells something of the inspiration behind Ashkenazy's interpretation, and then watching him conduct it with such affection, like the two girls performing it at the Moscow Conservatory posted earlier, it's pretty special, as is the way Alissa skates to it.

JMO

geod2
03-20-2012, 03:48 PM
Kuolema: Valse triste, Op. 44 no 1 by Jean Sibelius

Conductor: Vladimir Ashkenazy
Orchestra/Ensemble: Chamber Orchestra of Europe
Period: Romantic
Written: 1903-1904; Finland

....watching him conduct it with such affection,... it's pretty special...



Yes, that was very special....nice, indeed!
Thank you for the link.

Of course. the conductor, and his/her musicians always have the luxury of not being required to cut their performance to fit
a time period determined by competitive rules and the endurance of the figure skater.

Adapting an otherwise stunning orchestral performance to a figure skating competition is much like adapting a stunning novel to a movie...
...the more likely outcome is that something will be lost in translation simply by the time constaints that are imposed in the adaptation.
This is not the fault of the figure skating choreographer any more than it's the fault of the movie's director...
Something has to go, and the trick then becomes how to limit and disguise the damage.

The version chosen by Team Czisny already suffers from a slightly slower tempo, and she even tries to
compensate with her expended opening pose to "soak up" some of the extra time.
If she had used the version you've just provided, fan5, and extended her skating time a bit, maybe more of the fans that aren't
so thrilled with this LP would be ...well, ....thrilled.

Someone upthread mentioned that the way Alissa's choreographer cut the music to fit was a problem, but IMO it's also the tempo...
which we can now see more clearly with this livelier and richer version.

Squeezing a moving and timeless composition like Valse Triste into the time allotted to a figure skating LP is a real challenge.
It reminds me so much of that scene from the movie Amadeus:

Emperor Joseph II: "My dear young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious.
It's quality work...but there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just remove a few and it will be perfect."

Mozart: "Which few did you have in mind, Majesty?"

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