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Mayra
03-15-2012, 04:25 AM
With all due respect, I think this is a very shallow characterization of Alissa's programs.

She's a very lyrical and graceful skater, and the style of her programs suits her. Why is that a bad thing? If she was skating to something like techno or faux-metal, just to "do something other", people would be all over her for not playing to her strengths and wasting her talent.

Trying something different or "other" doesn't automatically mean going to extremes ala faux-metal. There are so many genres of music and styles of dance and presentation that Alissa can take. See Carolina Kostner.

overedge
03-15-2012, 04:36 AM
Trying something different or "other" doesn't automatically mean going to extremes ala faux-metal. There are so many genres of music and styles of dance and presentation that Alissa can take. See Carolina Kostner.

I don't think this is a good comparison. Carolina (IMHO anyway) doesn't have one style she's particularly strong at. Yes, she has tried a lot of different styles, but again IMHO that's because she's still searching for the one that "clicks" for her, not because she's trying to expand her range.

b-man
03-15-2012, 04:43 AM
Since there's little or no money involved, I think the organizers of senior B's -- aside from the Olympic qualifier -- might be upset that some headliners will not show up because there are no points ranking points to be had. Maybe if they limited it to one Senior B and two GP's or two GP's and three Senior B's?

ETA:

First, winning a Senior B gets 60% of the points of winning a GP. The first five skaters at GP earn more points that the winner of a Senior B, which is often the caliber of skater that wins a Senior B. Helgesson was 4th at the International Challenge Cup and earned 182 points from it (the equivalent of 15-16 at Euros/4C's) in addition to the 250 for winning TRW (the equivalent of 12-13th at Euros/4C's). She was 5th at TEB and 3rd at SA.

Helgesson was 10th at Worlds two years ago, has had two top-six finishes in a row at European Championships, and medalled at a GP this year. I wish I liked her skating, but nonetheless, she's been performing well.

She's had the most active season of all Ladies skaters except Meite. Rankings are a combination of how much a skater participates and how well she/he/they do. It's hardly the only ranking system that rewards participation, which makes the organizers happy, and they're the ones putting dollars behind the competitions.

Thanks Kwanfan for your reasoned and logical explanation. I have observed the season's rankings, and season's best scores for the last few years and have always wondered why those with high season's ranking did so poorly at world's. The answer was always European skaters loading up on point gaining senior B's in their own backyard. I always wondered why the ISU had such a system that apparently put North American and East Asian skaters at such a disadvantage. One answer was Europe has many Federations with presumably many votes for the status quo, which appreared to favor their own skaters. You have given me another side of the story which I appreciate.

Mayra
03-15-2012, 05:02 AM
I don't think this is a good comparison. Carolina (IMHO anyway) doesn't have one style she's particularly strong at. Yes, she has tried a lot of different styles, but again IMHO that's because she's still searching for the one that "clicks" for her, not because she's trying to expand her range.

Even after finding a style that works for you, you can still give yourself a lot of leeway and challenge yourself to try different things. Why wouldn't you? There's a reason why Virtue and Moir(as great as they are) take hits for arguably doing the same style of program year after year(with a few exceptions).

I think Alissa has reached a point in her skating where her programs are starting to run together and she's hit an artistic wall of sorts. They are lovely lyrical programs that are getting emptier as time goes on. Not a lot of interpretation or depth, and nothing really memorable beyond her own skating abilities IMO.

I do however think it is unfair to single Alissa out in this regard. It's not as if any of the other ladiezzz are showing up with choreographic masterpieces. Still, if the men have managed to find a way to challenge themselves and raise the bar, I think the women can as well.

nubka
03-15-2012, 05:02 AM
I'm guessing USFSA has a lot to do with how Alissa is packaged. After all, "what more could you want in a ladies skater?"

Someone who can land her jumps. :slinkaway

dinakt
03-15-2012, 05:04 AM
Even if you don't think Alissa's LP this year is as bad as everyone thinks it is, to the very least, the music for last year's LP was very pleasing to the ear. Even then, I still think last year's LP has more transitions than this year's.

For a soft piece like Valse Triste to work, you need to fill it out completely with transitions, otherwise you will be bored to death. On top of that, I'm not really a huge fan of her music cuts either for this season's LP.

Unfortunately I cannot provide a link, as I do not remember exactly where I read it ( but I know I am not imaginging things:))- in one of the early interviews, with either Alissa or Camerlengo, it was mentioned that were A LOT more transition choreograophed into "Valse Triste" LP. The plan was to add transitions as Alissa got comfortable with the jump lay-out. But when, as I imagine, she got injured before the GPF, all hopes of adding transitions went down the drain. A real pity, as I think it could have been absolutely gorgeous. I like Alissa and "Valse Triste" even in the current version, but it does look simplified.

BreakfastClub
03-15-2012, 05:30 AM
With all due respect, I think this is a very shallow characterization of Alissa's programs.

She's a very lyrical and graceful skater, and the style of her programs suits her. Why is that a bad thing?

I think it's a fair description of her programs since going to Sato/Dunjgen. She skated with a lot more speed and attack when she had music that was driving her and requiring her to be more spot on with choreographic timing and details. This new bland style (might I note now usually skated in a pastel or white dress, often with a tissue-y long skirt) encourages slow skating, jump stalking and throwaway "pretty" movements passed off as choreography against music that is gentle but more featureless... which results in an pwetty pwincess turning wonderfully subtle music like Valse Triste into a snoozefest with splats. :slinkaway

Iceman
03-15-2012, 06:21 AM
Pasquale's choreography (assuming Alissa is actually skating it) leaves Alissa too much time to "think" or anticipate her jumps. Valse Triste (sad waltz)----Alissa fails to bring that to her interpretation imo. In fact, I believe she smiles during her spiral, which doesn't seem appropriate, unless her interpretation is that sadness has driven her mad.

IceAlisa
03-15-2012, 06:29 AM
In fact, I believe she smiles during her spiral, which doesn't seem appropriate, unless her interpretation is that sadness has driven her mad.
I don't recall her smile exactly but don't be so literal in your interpretation. There are some wistful parts in Valse Triste where a sad, wistful smile would be appropriate. I am sure Alissa could manage one, considering how her free skates had been going. :shuffle:

Ziggy
03-15-2012, 07:29 AM
I do agree that whining is pointless, but that could be said of thousands of threads started on FSU. How about all those "Starting Order" threads and "OMG, so-and-so is skating first, he's screwed!" and "my favorite skater has to go last, her nerves won't be able to take it!" :lol:

But this thread features made up theories about the reasons for her weaker performances coupled with this extremely annoying sense of entitlement and tons of judgement.

Skaters aren't machines.

Maybe Alissa just isn't in a very good form this season?

Maybe long-term aiming work on further altering her jump technique is resulting in short-term problems?

Maybe there's some injuries we aren't aware of?


That is totally ridiculous. They really need to change those rules to prevent such grossly inflated ISU rankings.

No they don't. Everybody is free to enter international competitions.


Sure (good luck in this economy) but should also be a cap as to how many of these tiny competitions count toward your world ranking. A person who finished 17th at Worlds shouldn't be ranked second in the world.

There is a cap.

And what does finishing 17th at Worlds last season have to do with ranking in this season?

In case you forgot, Helgesson was 5th at Euros this season.

arakwafan2006
03-15-2012, 12:32 PM
Pasquale's choreography (assuming Alissa is actually skating it) leaves Alissa too much time to "think" or anticipate her jumps. Valse Triste (sad waltz)----Alissa fails to bring that to her interpretation imo. In fact, I believe she smiles during her spiral, which doesn't seem appropriate, unless her interpretation is that sadness has driven her mad.

If the program was the issue though, i have to think that she would have either got a new one OR went back to her program from last season that she had so much success with.

At the end of the day, everyone is not meant to be a Michelle Kwan or a Yu Na Kim or even a Mao Asada. Alissa will go down in history as being an American version of Jose Chouinard. I LOVED her skating, loved her personality but when she was in competition, she was as nervous as a whore in church. As a pro skater, she had her fair share of success. Actually as an eligible skater she had her fair share of success. She just never really "rose to the occasion" as Button would say.

Iceman
03-15-2012, 12:33 PM
The background to the music as it functions within the original play is expanded upon by the programme notes for the production:

It is night. The son, who has been watching beside the bedside of his sick mother, has fallen asleep from sheer weariness, Gradually a ruddy light is diffused through the room: there is a sound of distant music: the glow and the music steal nearer until the strains of a valse melody float distantly to our ears. The sleeping mother awakens, rises from her bed and, in her long white garment, which takes the semblance of a ball dress, begins to move silently and slowly to and fro. She waves her hands and beckons in time to the music, as though she were summoning a crowd of invisible guests. And now they appear, these strange visionary couples, turning and gliding to an unearthly valse rhythm. The dying woman mingles with the dancers; she strives to make them look into her eyes, but the shadowy guests one and all avoid her glance. Then she seems to sink exhausted on her bed and the music breaks off. Presently she gathers all her strength and invokes the dance once more, with more energetic gestures than before. Back come the shadowy dancers, gyrating in a wild, mad rhythm. The weird gaiety reaches a climax; there is a knock at the door, which flies wide open; the mother utters a despairing cry; the spectral guests vanish; the music dies away. Death stands on the threshold.

Cheylana
03-15-2012, 01:17 PM
But this thread features made up theories about the reasons for her weaker performances coupled with this extremely annoying sense of entitlement and tons of judgement.
That is hardly unique to this thread.

kwanatic
03-15-2012, 01:48 PM
I think it's a fair description of her programs since going to Sato/Dunjgen. She skated with a lot more speed and attack when she had music that was driving her and requiring her to be more spot on with choreographic timing and details. This new bland style (might I note now usually skated in a pastel or white dress, often with a tissue-y long skirt) encourages slow skating, jump stalking and throwaway "pretty" movements passed off as choreography against music that is gentle but more featureless... which results in an pwetty pwincess turning wonderfully subtle music like Valse Triste into a snoozefest with splats. :slinkaway

That is true. No one can take away from the fact that Alissa is a lovely skater, but I do feel like she's hit a wall artistically. Everybody has bad programs and IMO this LP is one of her weakest. I would like to see her attempt to skate to something with a bit more life to it, or at least a bit more choreography. But when a skater is struggling with their technical content, choreography/transitions/etc. are more of a distraction than anything. I think back to Mao's "Bells" program and how it was empty it was. At the time she was focusing so much on her 3a that everything else had to fall away in order for her to concentrate.

Alissa has had a good season (medal-wise) but she's in a slump heading into these worlds. She's looked fragile all season IMO. Maybe it's the soft slow music or just her delicate nature, but I always feel like Alissa's one good tap away from shattering into a zillion pieces.

I'm not feeling too good about her chances right now but for the sake of the US ladies, I'm hoping she pulls herself together and turns in two respectable performances. Even with her being in a rut she's still the only one I'd pick to fill that 2nd spot at worlds...and maybe Caroline. Caroline's been strong lately, but she's still in a rebuilding phase. Agnes is amazing but she's a weak LP skater...Mirai is so lost mentally at this point it'd be a waste to send her... Rachael's focus seems to be school (plus she has no strong performances to stand on except for nationals and that doesn't count internationally)...Alissa's our best hope. With any luck she'll pull it off...I'm not going to hold my breath though.

RD
03-15-2012, 02:35 PM
That is true. No one can take away from the fact that Alissa is a lovely skater, but I do feel like she's hit a wall artistically. Everybody has bad programs and IMO this LP is one of her weakest. I would like to see her attempt to skate to something with a bit more life to it, or at least a bit more choreography. But when a skater is struggling with their technical content, choreography/transitions/etc. are more of a distraction than anything. I think back to Mao's "Bells" program and how it was empty it was. At the time she was focusing so much on her 3a that everything else had to fall away in order for her to concentrate.

Sorry, not a fact. That's about as "opinion" as one can get ;) (Fact would be something like, she's Natl silver medalist)

And before she can do anything "artistically", she needs to land those darn jumps first.