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skfan
03-14-2012, 05:31 PM
everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. for me, valse triste, even this cut which others find so objectionable, is very beautiful and sufficiently evocative with variable shadings *if* the skater brings the rest of the package. complaints about valse triste reminds me of when people bashed spartacus as lacking sufficient energy and spark to 'carry' mirai nagasu. true, valse triste is not the artistic bandaid that a chopped up EoE has been for many skaters, but if you (the skater) respect your capability as an artist, nothing wrong with not going down the beaten path. again, your mileage may vary, but for me the korngold piece brought out czisny's strengths, and valse triste had the potential to do the same.

i must admit i just do not like that 'winter...' winston music, so i am not as capable of seeing all the colors and magic in it that others are able to see. transitions... hmm. for me czisny's programs tend to be fairly barren of them, but i'm just not impressed by transitions in general--often, it's just a skater lifting the leg then putting it down again or doing a 12 millisecond ina bauer before resuming stalking a jump, so, i didn't find winston so much more 'transition-packed' or otherwise more complete and full of changes in mood and tempo. if anything for me winston's music was watery, and then slightly faster watery, and then truly monotonous while czisny did an extended spin. there is a more upbeat middle section to czisny's valse triste program as well, and for me it differed more from the opening section of her program than winston's 'winter' music differed from the previous 'winter' passage.

for me, it was not a mistake to use this cut of music (yes, this exact cut) for czisny, because while i'm not a fan, i respect her quiet blades on the ice, the quiet hush she could cast upon an arena. i don't believe the rink is quiet only because everyone is holding breath praying for success on her next jump. i think it is good, at least in theory, to create a program that emphasizes a unique strength in the age of louder and faster and as-much-eye-popping-flexibility as possible. if it were not for the fact that her jump technique seems not as stable as last season for whatever reason, people would not be scrambling for a scapegoat and pinning it on the music / music cut/ choreography.

if as fan5 says the choreography is associated with a particular scene, then perhaps if she and her team had blitzed the press with comments about the artistic impetus behind their work (taking a page from the duchesnays' 'missing'), the program would have been differently received. i myself think no explanation was necessary, just a few more successful jumps.

martyross
03-14-2012, 10:37 PM
I think for Alissa Valse Triste is associated with a scene in the play Kuolema for which the music was originally commissioned. Just looking at the sheer white dress, the way the skate begins motionless with eyes closed, the knit brow at the end. It fits with this scene in the play where the dying young mother was sleeping and is awoken to find people dancing in her room, and then joins them.
interesting! it's a sort of danse macabre then. is there a video for this drama, by chance?

i enjoyed her performance at TEB. i felt that Alissa was a fine interpreter of the music.

if anyone is interested, here's an artistic and poignant animated clip for "Valse triste". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sB6Q0-SaNk&t=26s

Cheylana
03-14-2012, 11:54 PM
Everyone has the same right to enter into those competitions. It's really more of a cost thing for other skaters who live far from Europe, where most of those senior Bs are held.

I think the more correct thing to do is to hold more senior Bs in NA and Asia.
Sure (good luck in this economy) but should also be a cap as to how many of these tiny competitions count toward your world ranking. A person who finished 17th at Worlds shouldn't be ranked second in the world.

Vagabond
03-15-2012, 12:01 AM
Sure (good luck in this economy) but should also be a cap as to how many of these tiny competitions count toward your world ranking. A person who finished 17th at Worlds shouldn't be ranked second in the world.

Viktoria Helgesson is second in this season's world ranking. Her results last season don't have anything to do with the matter.

Verstehen sie?

Sylvia
03-15-2012, 12:11 AM
I think it would make more sense to only count the ISU World ranking points from the top 2 Grand Prix/GP Final OR Senior B competitions in the same season.

The U.S. plans to hold/host their first Senior B this fall.

ETA: I wonder if the person who started this thread a few days ago in GSD is ever going to come back and see what has become of it? ;)

BreakfastClub
03-15-2012, 12:17 AM
everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. for me, valse triste, even this cut which others find so objectionable, is very beautiful and sufficiently evocative with variable shadings *if* the skater brings the rest of the package.

Exactly. Some mentioned skating like Buttle. Or perhaps like this:
Johnny Weir 03-04 SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2x9RfuxLsQ)

Sato/Dunjgen seem to have decided that pwetty, floaty pwincess in delicate dresses skating to sweet, soft music is the right packaging for her. Give me this Alissa back any day: Jesse Cook SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igTgLpC2orQ) Even when she fell, I loved her attack and engagement with the music and movement every time she skated this program.

Sparks
03-15-2012, 12:22 AM
A Senior B competition in the US? Can you say more?

triple_toe
03-15-2012, 12:31 AM
Sato/Dunjgen seem to have decided that pwetty, floaty pwincess in delicate dresses skating to sweet, soft music is the right packaging for her. Give me this Alissa back any day: Jesse Cook SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igTgLpC2orQ) Even when she fell, I loved her attack and engagement with the music and movement every time she skated this program.

Look at how confident and happy she is when she takes to the ice and starts her program. No deer-in-headlights there. Get back to this Alissa!!

fan5
03-15-2012, 12:41 AM
interesting! it's a sort of danse macabre then. is there a video for this drama, by chance?

i enjoyed her performance at TEB. i felt that Alissa was a fine interpreter of the music.

if anyone is interested, here's an artistic and poignant animated clip for "Valse triste". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sB6Q0-SaNk&t=26s

Valse Triste also reminds me very much of danse macabre -- and of the Dying Swan.

I'm looking at the Fantasia clip of Valse Triste now, thanks!

IceAlisa
03-15-2012, 02:10 AM
Exactly. Some mentioned skating like Buttle. Or perhaps like this:
Johnny Weir 03-04 SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2x9RfuxLsQ)


:swoon: Johnny was just gorgeous.

b-man
03-15-2012, 02:27 AM
Viktoria Helgesson is second in this season's world ranking. Her results last season don't have anything to do with the matter.

Verstehen sie?

Yes, she loads up on points from European senior B's, which gives a very misleading impression on a skaters ability. The world placing from last year, 17th, counts towards the overall world ranking, and is a more accurate relection of her ability. She is not the 2nd best skater in the world.

Coco
03-15-2012, 02:29 AM
Exactly. Some mentioned skating like Buttle. Or perhaps like this:
Johnny Weir 03-04 SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2x9RfuxLsQ)

Sato/Dunjgen seem to have decided that pwetty, floaty pwincess in delicate dresses skating to sweet, soft music is the right packaging for her. Give me this Alissa back any day: Jesse Cook SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igTgLpC2orQ) Even when she fell, I loved her attack and engagement with the music and movement every time she skated this program.

I'm guessing USFSA has a lot to do with how Alissa is packaged. After all, "what more could you want in a ladies skater?"

OK, that was Scott :) But given that they told Rachael Flatt to get a haircut, I'm guessing they have a lot of say/influence in the styles the top US ladies are portraying on the ice.

I agree with you that it would be great to see her do something other than pwetty pwincess.

Sylvia
03-15-2012, 02:35 AM
From an interview published in September 2011:

Icenetwork.com: Let's talk about your new programs. They are based on Edith Piaf's "La Vie en Rose" and Jean Sibelius' "Valse Triste." Both of them are full of purpose, feelings and energy. What was the process like of choosing these musical selections and creating your programs?

Czisny: My free skate was choreographed by Pasquale Camerlengo. This year, he had chosen the music for me, and I loved it the moment that he played it for me. I think the style of the music is similar to some of my past programs, a style that suits my skating well, but I also think it is stronger and has greater depth.

My short program music took longer to find. We searched for awhile to find just the right piece of music, but when we finally chose "La Vie en Rose," I knew it was perfect! Yuka Sato chose the music, and she and Pasquale Camerlengo both choreographed my short program.


A Senior B competition in the US? Can you say more?
Here's what I posted earlier this week in GSD: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3508458&postcount=22

overedge
03-15-2012, 02:48 AM
I agree with you that it would be great to see her do something other than pwetty pwincess.

With all due respect, I think this is a very shallow characterization of Alissa's programs.

She's a very lyrical and graceful skater, and the style of her programs suits her. Why is that a bad thing? If she was skating to something like techno or faux-metal, just to "do something other", people would be all over her for not playing to her strengths and wasting her talent.

kwanfan1818
03-15-2012, 04:08 AM
Since there's little or no money involved, I think the organizers of senior B's -- aside from the Olympic qualifier -- might be upset that some headliners will not show up because there are no points ranking points to be had. Maybe if they limited it to one Senior B and two GP's or two GP's and three Senior B's?

ETA:

Yes, she loads up on points from European senior B's, which gives a very misleading impression on a skaters ability. The world placing from last year, 17th, counts towards the overall world ranking, and is a more accurate relection of her ability. She is not the 2nd best skater in the world.
First, winning a Senior B gets 60% of the points of winning a GP. The first five skaters at GP earn more points that the winner of a Senior B, which is often the caliber of skater that wins a Senior B. Helgesson was 4th at the International Challenge Cup and earned 182 points from it (the equivalent of 15-16 at Euros/4C's) in addition to the 250 for winning TRW (the equivalent of 12-13th at Euros/4C's). She was 5th at TEB and 3rd at SA.

Helgesson was 10th at Worlds two years ago, has had two top-six finishes in a row at European Championships, and medalled at a GP this year. I wish I liked her skating, but nonetheless, she's been performing well.

She's had the most active season of all Ladies skaters except Meite. Rankings are a combination of how much a skater participates and how well she/he/they do. It's hardly the only ranking system that rewards participation, which makes the organizers happy, and they're the ones putting dollars behind the competitions.