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judgejudy27
02-23-2012, 09:47 AM
Say what you will about Irina but she was a legit threat to win gold at every major event she entered from 2000-2006 (other than perhaps 2004 Worlds just back from a major illness) and a legit threat to atleast medal at every major event she entered in 1996-2006. I doubt very much someone like Witt would have been that strong a factor for so many years in the Michelle Kwan era.

Henjie is hard to compare, she is from a whole different zone altogether. I am sure she was an amazing skater, but there are some horror stories of the kind of politics that went behind some of her wins, ones that would put even the work the Russian and German federations did for Witt and Slutskaya to seem like nothing. Her first World title came with 3 of the 5 judges being from Norway, and she won despite the 2 non Norwegian judges voting for the 5 time defending Champion Herma Plack, and her win created such an uproar that only 1 judge per country was ever allowed in the future. Some have said Maribel Vinson outskated her at times and lost, and most seem to think Cecilia Colledge had surpassed her by the mid 30s but was not allowed by the powers that be to ever win.

Cyn
02-23-2012, 12:17 PM
I voted for Henie, not just because of her skating skills, but because of the impact she had on figure skating.

She's inarguably the most successful competitive Lady in Figure Skating history, with 3 Olympic Gold Medals, 10 World Gold Medals, and 6 European Gold Medals.

In addition to that, Henie introduced wearing decorative costumes, particularly ones that dared to *GASP!* show off her legs, as well as being the first skater to wear white boots :swoon:, changing the style of dress from Mary Poppins clones into Tiffed :glamor:. She's also the skater who introduced the idea of using dance/choreography in her programs (hmmm….I wonder if she skated to Malaguena, Swan Lake, and Rach2? :P)

Despite the controversy about her affiliation with Hitler and the Nazi Party, the skating movies she made helped to bring the sport (and the artistic glamor of it) to the mainstream public and create an interest in the figure skating. Without her contributions, there's a good chance we wouldn't now have the :eek: :drama: :rofl: costume voids we know and love so much

PashaFan
02-23-2012, 12:47 PM
Say what you will about Irina but she was a legit threat to win gold at every major event she entered from 2000-2006 (other than perhaps 2004 Worlds just back from a major illness) and a legit threat to atleast medal at every major event she entered in 1996-2006. I doubt very much someone like Witt would have been that strong a factor for so many years in the Michelle Kwan era.

Henjie is hard to compare, she is from a whole different zone altogether. I am sure she was an amazing skater, but there are some horror stories of the kind of politics that went behind some of her wins, ones that would put even the work the Russian and German federations did for Witt and Slutskaya to seem like nothing. Her first World title came with 3 of the 5 judges being from Norway, and she won despite the 2 non Norwegian judges voting for the 5 time defending Champion Herma Plack, and her win created such an uproar that only 1 judge per country was ever allowed in the future. Some have said Maribel Vinson outskated her at times and lost, and most seem to think Cecilia Colledge had surpassed her by the mid 30s but was not allowed by the powers that be to ever win.
I agree about Henie. I've read some things about her that does IMO put a huge question mark next to her name.
But about Witt. She was in a different era to Kwan & could only beat the skaters she was up against in the 80's. Also, there were probably things she had to overcome too. Two Olympic gold medals IMO put's her at the top. Slutskaya, Kwan & Kostner do not have that. Baiul does but did not have the long career.
These day's the European girls struggle at the World's & Olympics.
Europe have not had a female World Champion since 2005.

caro-ira
02-23-2012, 01:22 PM
For me, it's Irina Slutskaya, despite the lack of the Olympic Gold.

I also think Carolina Kostner should have been included in the list. ;)

berthesghost
02-23-2012, 01:33 PM
Say what you will about Irina but she was a legit threat to win gold at every major event she entered from 2000-2006 (other than perhaps 2004 Worlds just back from a major illness) and a legit threat to atleast medal at every major event she entered in 1996-2006. I doubt very much someone like Witt would have been that strong a factor for so many years in the Michelle Kwan era.

Henjie is hard to compare, she is from a whole different zone altogether. I am sure she was an amazing skater, but there are some horror stories of the kind of politics that went behind some of her wins, ones that would put even the work the Russian and German federations did for Witt and Slutskaya to seem like nothing. Her first World title came with 3 of the 5 judges being from Norway, and she won despite the 2 non Norwegian judges voting for the 5 time defending Champion Herma Plack, and her win created such an uproar that only 1 judge per country was ever allowed in the future. Some have said Maribel Vinson outskated her at times and lost, and most seem to think Cecilia Colledge had surpassed her by the mid 30s but was not allowed by the powers that be to ever win.:lol:
Now we're going by gossip?
Jon Jackson wrote something like irina wouldn't make top 10 at us nats! :lol: toller Cranston wrote that Peggy fell in her oly fs (hire a fact checker next time toller!) :lol: cupcake gave an interview about how she obviously outskated kwan at 03 worlds and wuz robbed by cheatin judges! :lol: and let's not even get started on Sandra and scot at Slc Olys! :lol:
I can't believe a regular poster at fsu is putting stock in "well, people say...." :rolleyes: 50 years from now someone will be posting "well the French judge said that Stapleton intimidated her.." :lol:

Karpenko
02-23-2012, 02:32 PM
Irina got way too much flack for not being polished. She was a dynamic skater, I always wanted to wring her neck when she tried something soft pretty and flowy because it was like she was giving in to her critics. And then I wanted to wring the judges necks for giving her 6.0's. ;) There is still yet to be a skater in the past ten years who had that dynamic spark that Irina had. She never really got a program that did it justice, the one I think that came closest to showing how good Irina could be was this program:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh5bPAKH6oQ


I always rooted for Kwan over her, but she had a dynamic star power that really shined through when she was on and performing to the right programs.

judgejudy27
02-23-2012, 04:04 PM
:lol:
Now we're going by gossip?
Jon Jackson wrote something like irina wouldn't make top 10 at us nats! :lol: toller Cranston wrote that Peggy fell in her oly fs (hire a fact checker next time toller!) :lol: cupcake gave an interview about how she obviously outskated kwan at 03 worlds and wuz robbed by cheatin judges! :lol: and let's not even get started on Sandra and scot at Slc Olys! :lol:
I can't believe a regular poster at fsu is putting stock in "well, people say...." :rolleyes: 50 years from now someone will be posting "well the French judge said that Stapleton intimidated her.." :lol:

These arent just solo random people saying crazy things (especialy ones with no credability like jaded former judge Jon Jackson). Many credible people have written and implied the same things on Henjie, some of her wins, and some of the events that transpired.

PashaFan
02-23-2012, 05:28 PM
These arent just solo random people saying crazy things (especialy ones with no credability like jaded former judge Jon Jackson). Many credible people have written and implied the same things on Henjie, some of her wins, and some of the events that transpired.

You are right. It's a fact.
It's a shame that somebody who achieved what she did on the ice will always have that said about her.

Nomad
02-23-2012, 06:15 PM
These arent just solo random people saying crazy things (especialy ones with no credability like jaded former judge Jon Jackson). Many credible people have written and implied the same things on Henjie, some of her wins, and some of the events that transpired.

IIRC one of those people was Henie's own brother.

Moka-Ananas
02-23-2012, 06:36 PM
Slutskaya. Love her. Can't stand Witt.

DimaToe
02-23-2012, 06:58 PM
My heart will always belong to Queen Masha:glamor:, when she was on it was just pure magic:swoon:.

Oh, and shout out to Bonaly, she was also a fantastic skater, even without the basics :cool:

Dilng
02-23-2012, 07:24 PM
Slutskaya. Love her. Can't stand Witt.

:lol: That sums it up for me. I liked Witt in her early years competing, but she became annoying and then I got to the point where I couldn't stand her either!

Totally agree with JudgeJudy27 about Henie.

Maofan7
02-23-2012, 08:07 PM
In terms of Surya Bonaly and Carolina Kostner not being included, the maximum number of options in a poll is 12. This poll includes 11 skaters plus an 'other' option. The key thing for me as to why Bonaly and Kostner were not included in the poll ahead of the 11 that were, was that Bonaly never succeeded in becoming a world or Olympic champion, and Kostner has not yet become a world or Olympic champion. She may yet still do so. In terms of the records of the 11 that are on the list:-

Herma Szabo - 1 Olympic title, 5 world titles
Sonja Henie - 3 Olympic titles, 10 world titles, 6 Euro titles
Cecilia Colledge - 1 world title, 3 Euro titles, favourite for the cancelled 1940 olympics
Sjoukje Dijkstra - 1 Olympic title, 3 world titles, 5 Euro titles
Gabriele Seyfert - 2 world titles, 3 Euro titles, favourite for 72 Olympics had she not retired
Anett P÷tzsch - 1 Olympic title, 2 world titles, 4 Euro titles
Denise Biellmann - 1 world title, 1 Euro titles - would have won more, but retired
Katarina Witt - 2 Olympic titles, 4 world titles, 6 Euro titles
Oksana Baiul - 1 Olympic title, 1 world title
Irina Slutskaya - 2 world titles, 7 Euro titles
Maria Butyrskaya - 1 world title, 3 Euro titles - would have been more, but was competing in an era which included Kwan & Slutskaya.

Hence, there was simply no room for Bonaly and Kostner in the poll. The 11 that did get in quite simply have better records than them. However, Kostner's career has not yet finished and if she does win world and Olympic titles over the next few years then that could all change. It is also worth noting that there were several other world and Olympic champions that didn't make the final 11, who I would say were also ahead of Bonaly and Kostner, such as:-

Trixi Schuba - 1 Olympic title, 2 world titles, 2 Euro titles
Jeannette Altwegg - 1 Olympic title, 1 world title, 2 Euro titles
Madge Syers - 1 Olympic title, 2 world titles

There are also several others who became world champions who did not make the final 11, and who are also arguably ahead of Bonaly and Kostner.

In terms of what I mean by a "great skater" - it includes all sorts of factors including the quality of their skating, their competitiveness, their temperament, and their overall record (i.e. the overall 'package' taking all aspects into account). That is, what makes a 'great' figure skater for me is someone who has the ability to produce quality skating, who has a great competitive temperament, and who can deliver the 'goods' as it were in terms of medals on the world stage at the most important events (i.e. the Olympics and worlds). Bonaly and Kostner's great weaknesses were that they were not able to win a world or Olympic gold medal (Kostner may yet still do so), and their competitive temperament failed them at key moments. Moreover, in terms of Bonaly, she had great jumping technique, but there were many problems with other aspects of her skating which others have already alluded to in this thread. As for Kostner, she has for the most part had problems with the more difficult jumps, and has for some time now been skating with content which has been significantly scaled back in terms of difficulty.

ioana
02-23-2012, 08:59 PM
Oh, and shout out to Bonaly, she was also a fantastic skater, even without the basics :cool:

:confused: I believe that makes her a very good jumper, excellent back-flipper, but still a mediocre skater.

query5
02-24-2012, 06:50 PM
i am torn between herma szabo 5 world titles and olympic gold, plus a world title in pairs and katarina witt..
i chose both but can only vote for 1 so i refrain from voting.