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kwanfan1818
03-04-2012, 08:29 AM
I don't think Chan is a lock for a gold medal, especially if Plushenko manages to buy himself a few transitions, because Plushenko gets Takahashi-like marks without them. Gachinski got a bunch of transitions this year, to the good. I'd expect Plushenko to have his full speed and power back by Sochi; the lack of it, in my opinion, is why Lysacek won the gold in Vancouver.

I don't know if everyone has listened to manleywoman's podcast with David Kirby, but one of the discussion points was the audience not understanding how Chan could win with multiple falls, and Kirby talks about internal plans to make some changes to PCS (no details given). Given the ISU's penchant for making major changes for the Olympic year instead of after it, I wouldn't be surprised to see changes that stir things up and make the results less predictable. That's in addition to the general pressure Chan will be under as the presumed gold medalist combined with the CANADIAN MEN NEVER WIN THE GOLD MEDAL hype/pressure from the Canadian media going into Sochi.

misskarne
03-04-2012, 01:31 PM
Is Mishin still coaching Gachinski? If so, I could see Gachinski having a problem with this since he and Plushenko are now head-to-head rivals.

Yes, Gachinsky is still in the Mishin stable. I've wondered for a little while how Plushenko sees things. We know how Gachinsky sees things because it's obvious on his face - that awful haunted look, the pressure. But looking at pictures and videos from Sheffield, I think Gachinsky's view has changed. There was something in his expression that was harder, more determined. I think he's finally hit the switch and put away Plushenko-the-childhood-idol-great-skater and brought out Plushenko-the-rival-and-beatable-skater.

I would imagine that Plushenko counts Gachinsky as a rival (he's a smart man and knows them all), but I have a sneaking feeling that he would take losing to Gachinsky a LOT better than losing to Chan.


I don't think Chan is a lock for a gold medal, especially if Plushenko manages to buy himself a few transitions, because Plushenko gets Takahashi-like marks without them. Gachinski got a bunch of transitions this year, to the good. I'd expect Plushenko to have his full speed and power back by Sochi; the lack of it, in my opinion, is why Lysacek won the gold in Vancouver.

I don't know if everyone has listened to manleywoman's podcast with David Kirby, but one of the discussion points was the audience not understanding how Chan could win with multiple falls, and Kirby talks about internal plans to make some changes to PCS (no details given). Given the ISU's penchant for making major changes for the Olympic year instead of after it, I wouldn't be surprised to see changes that stir things up and make the results less predictable. That's in addition to the general pressure Chan will be under as the presumed gold medalist combined with the CANADIAN MEN NEVER WIN THE GOLD MEDAL hype/pressure from the Canadian media going into Sochi.

Original discussion is about Worlds this year, but I agree mostly with that first part, except that I expect that Plushenko is going to end up with a lot more content than some will give him credit for. As well as that, one thing can't be denied: if "charisma" or "stage presence" was a component, he'd get 10s every time. I wonder, could "stage presence" come under interpretation, presentation, choreo?

I'm glad that the ISU are changing things. It's just plain criminal that Chan is winning with all these falls. They've gone from penalising falls so harshly that skaters were too afraid to hit the hard jumps to not penalising them at all and allowing skaters to fall three or four times and still win. That's just ludicrous.

professordeb
03-04-2012, 03:28 PM
snip ... I'm glad that the ISU are changing things. It's just plain criminal that Chan is winning with all these falls. They've gone from penalising falls so harshly that skaters were too afraid to hit the hard jumps to not penalising them at all and allowing skaters to fall three or four times and still win. That's just ludicrous.
FYI, Chan (and others) ARE getting dinged for falling but apparently not to your satisfaction when it comes to PChiddy.

What is ludicrous is people making blanket statements about skaters who shouldn't have won because said posters haven't
1) been at the comp OR
2) watching the skating of that comp OR
3) looked at the protocols for that comp OR
4) bothered to see how "poorly" other skaters did at the same comp.

Really, that poor horse is feeling quite beaten -- not quite to the death, mind you -- and would dearly love for some to get off it's friggin case.

What you seem to be hinting at is reputation judging. Well, it would appeaer that is still alive in a number of places and many of us believe that Plushy is benefitting from such himself.

That being said, I hope Plushennko recovers and heals well. I may not agree with his decision to keep on competing til Sochi but I'll give him kudos for staying and helping out his country.

Nomad
03-04-2012, 03:33 PM
Well said, professordeb.

kwanfan1818
03-04-2012, 04:52 PM
Original discussion is about Worlds this year,
:o


if "charisma" or "stage presence" was a component, he'd get 10s every time. I wonder, could "stage presence" come under interpretation, presentation, choreo?


It comes under "Performance/Execution":

Physical, emotion, and intellectual involvement
Projection


Those two bullet points aren't exclusive to charismatic performances, but they cover charisma, and they are 1/3 of the PE mark for singles, if all bullet points are given equal weight.

alilou
03-04-2012, 05:54 PM
I don't know if everyone has listened to manleywoman's podcast with David Kirby, but one of the discussion points was the audience not understanding how Chan could win with multiple falls, and Kirby talks about internal plans to make some changes to PCS (no details given).

Are you sure it was David Kirby? I just listened to the whole interview with him and this was not mentioned. Please can you remember who it was as I'd like to hear it :)

Maybe I should just listen to all the podcasts :)

misskarne
03-05-2012, 01:28 AM
FYI, Chan (and others) ARE getting dinged for falling but apparently not to your satisfaction when it comes to PChiddy.

What is ludicrous is people making blanket statements about skaters who shouldn't have won because said posters haven't
1) been at the comp OR
2) watching the skating of that comp OR
3) looked at the protocols for that comp OR
4) bothered to see how "poorly" other skaters did at the same comp.

The first place I go when I see people talking about Chan falling and winning is the protocols, and then Youtube to watch the program. It leaves me unimpressed. Especially when, upon reading the protocols, I find that some judges have given him only -2 and -1 for a proper, butt-landing fall. And one point deduction? Woot. What is one point amongst 90 for a short, or more for a long? It's absolutely nothing.

It does not matter to me WHO the skater is. I am firmly of the opinion that once you fall, you should no longer be able to win. (If it will persuade you, I am also of the opinion that Plushenko was held up considerably after the SP at Salt Lake City. He certainly should have been below Abt.)

People keep squealing about "it's figure SKATING, not figure JUMPING!" Well to that I would like to add, "It's figure SKATING, not figure FALLING" and it's well past time the ISU did something about it.



It comes under "Performance/Execution":

Physical, emotion, and intellectual involvement
Projection


Those two bullet points aren't exclusive to charismatic performances, but they cover charisma, and they are 1/3 of the PE mark for singles, if all bullet points are given equal weight.

Excellent, thankyou! I didn't know that :)

Nomad
03-05-2012, 01:41 AM
^ So if Plushenko goes for the quad axel in Sochi, lands on his ass, and finishes fourth or lower, you'll be totally okay with that, right?

PrincessLeppard
03-05-2012, 01:47 AM
I don't know. Depends on the rest of the program. And how everyone else skates. :)

mag
03-05-2012, 02:42 AM
The first place I go when I see people talking about Chan falling and winning is the protocols, and then Youtube to watch the program. It leaves me unimpressed. Especially when, upon reading the protocols, I find that some judges have given him only -2 and -1 for a proper, butt-landing fall. And one point deduction? Woot. What is one point amongst 90 for a short, or more for a long? It's absolutely nothing.

It does not matter to me WHO the skater is. I am firmly of the opinion that once you fall, you should no longer be able to win. ...

First off, it doesn't matter if it is a 30 point SP or a 90 point SP, the deduction for a fall is the same. Are you suggesting those skaters with more difficult programs should have a larger deduction for falling, really?

Second, if falling puts a skater out of contention for gold, you will be watching a lot of fabulous double jumps for the ladies and lovely 2S and 3T's for the men. You certainly won't see any quads. If that happens, I'm fairly certain you will be back lamenting the fact the Chan has just won without a quad and claiming that the powers that be need to encourage and value quad more :blah: The lower the value of the jumps, the higher the relative value of PCS, including skating skills. With that in mind you are still going to be seeing Chan and Takahaski at the top of the heap.

MacMadame
03-05-2012, 06:09 AM
It does not matter to me WHO the skater is. I am firmly of the opinion that once you fall, you should no longer be able to win.

So if one skater does a quad as his first jump and falls but skates the rest of his program brilliantly with 2 triple axels and a later successful quad and the next skater has no jump harder than a triple lutz and skates okay but not brilliantly, the second skater should win anyway because "once you fall, you should no longer be able to win"?

That seems pretty silly to me.

You can't make a blanket statement that no program with a fall should win because it depends on what everyone puts out there.

kwanfan1818
03-05-2012, 07:00 AM
Are you sure it was David Kirby? I just listened to the whole interview with him and this was not mentioned. Please can you remember who it was as I'd like to hear it :)
manleywoman starts her question about 49'28". David Kirby starts to answer at about 50'20, and about 51'14" starts to speak about how the committee needs to address education, including that of the officials. He also says that you could have a Master of Arts and still not be able to judge the components, but I can't find the exact time spot right now.

Later, he describes how in Scott Hamilton's competition -- and he makes it clear that this is only in the proposal stage -- they may have five judges, each of whom is responsible for a single component. (He acknowledges that this would piss off current judges.)

Maybe I should just listen to all the podcasts :)[/QUOTE]
Well, yes :)

senorita
03-05-2012, 08:38 AM
If plushenko does a quad axel he would fall on everything, not just his butt.:lol:the post caused me the freaky image of head and legs flying in different directions, lol!

Ozzisk8tr
03-05-2012, 11:26 AM
If plushenko does a quad axel he would fall on everything, not just his butt.:lol:the post caused me the freaky image of head and legs flying in different directions, lol!

I'd pay to see that... :shuffle:

ciocio
03-05-2012, 04:07 PM
Ha-ha, imagine the performance/execution mark!!! He's get 10s all over the panel....:D:rofl: