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martyross
02-21-2012, 02:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z5fWd7Fu5o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjz1pSOaQZU&feature=related

Kind of old topic, I know…but I’m rather curious to hear what skating fans think of these two famous Free programs. just personal opinions about the performances without taking in consideration all the after-effects (that are recalled and discussed much more often). Which one do you prefer, from an artistic point of view? And who thinks that Sale-Pellettier deserved the gold above Berezhnaya-Sikharulidze? On a technical side, was Sikharulidze’s stumble between the Axel and the Toe, worth of a silver overall, considering that Sale-Pellettier had a fall at the end of the Short?

Marco
02-21-2012, 08:09 AM
Fall and all, I think S&P deserved top 3 after the short program so the "control their own destiny" point was pretty moot.

In the free, B&S's program was so complex and well executed compared to S&P's that the minor step out should not cost them the title. But it's just me.

I am much more interested to know what would have happened if S&P skated to Orchid (and cleanly), which was a brilliant program and one that could rival Meditation.

briancoogaert
02-21-2012, 10:24 AM
In the free, B&S's program was so complex and well executed compared to S&P's that the minor step out should not cost them the title. But it's just me.
It's not just you, it's me as well.

Anyway, Love Story is a beautiful, and very pleasant program, but there is nothing difficult in term of choreo, transitions...only cross-overs.
Meditation is not my favorite piece of music, but B&S had so much speed and complexity. There is no debate for me that B&S are superior in everything, it's not about this little toe at the end of the side by side 2Axel.
So, it's funny to imagine that under CoP, B&S would have won easily, without any problem (large margin after the SP, and after the LP, IMO).

PashaFan
02-21-2012, 11:03 AM
I so agree.
For me Elena & Anton more than made up for their one minor error with difficult choreography, spins & lifts.
I wish Jamie & David had skated to their Orchid routine in Vancouver. It had a lot of potential.
I only got to watch the Grand Prix events & final of these two couples leading up to SLC two years ago.
They were both inconsistent in their events.
But for me, even now I would still have B/S with the Gold medal.

maharbabackward
02-21-2012, 12:38 PM
Elena & Anton's program was a beautiful masterpiece. Technically intricate and mature. It really played to their strengths, and they hit some beautiful moves in the field moments that were gorgeous (combination of spread eagles, spirals, ina bauers). If you dissect element for element however, I think you'd have to give it to David & Jaime. The SBS double axels, split triple twist (B&S's triple twist was actually better than usual that day, but still was crashy) , the more difficult and intricate lifts, the better (and also the fact that there were two) death spirals. The SBS toes S&P had more difficult entrance but B&S were so in synch so I would tie them. The throws, Elena landed both a little bit forward whereas Jaime only did with the loop but I would tie them anyways. The spins, Jaime and David had difficult entrance but Elena and Anton had different positions so I will tie them again. The footwork I would give to Elena and Anton. So basically if we analyze element for element, the clear winners are S&P. Would Elena & Anton's advantage in what is now called PCS negate all the technical advantage?

briancoogaert
02-21-2012, 12:45 PM
Elena & Anton's program was a beautiful masterpiece. Technically intricate and mature. It really played to their strengths, and they hit some beautiful moves in the field moments that were gorgeous (combination of spread eagles, spirals, ina bauers). If you dissect element for element however, I think you'd have to give it to David & Jaime. The SBS double axels, split triple twist (B&S's triple twist was actually better than usual that day, but still was crashy) , the more difficult and intricate lifts, the better (and also the fact that there were two) death spirals. The SBS toes S&P had more difficult entrance but B&S were so in synch so I would tie them. The throws, Elena landed both a little bit forward whereas Jaime only did with the loop but I would tie them anyways. The spins, Jaime and David had difficult entrance but Elena and Anton had different positions so I will tie them again. The footwork I would give to Elena and Anton. So basically if we analyze element for element, the clear winners are S&P. Would Elena & Anton's advantage in what is now called PCS negate all the technical advantage?
S&P's throws were cleaner, but B&S had so much more amplitude.
It's the same for sbs jumps. There is such a big difference in term of height between Sale and Pelletier, it has always been disturbing. B&S 3Toe was so synchro.

Mafke
02-21-2012, 06:08 PM
I'm happy to see the civil tone (so far) not necessarily so typical in discussions of these programs.

I try to separate out "enjoyed more" from "better skating performance". I don't always succeed but I try.

I enjoyed S/P more, which is a major feat considering how much I dislike the source material. But the speed and presence they had added up to more than the sum of the parts.

I appreciate B/S's generally superior skating skills (as individuals, not all their pairs skills were better than S/P) but the minor errors that were almost always present bothered me more than similar errors by a lesser team would.

Also, both the SP and LP of B/S were kind of similar in mood, maybe a little too similar, S/P showed greater stylistic versatility (at SLC).

On the night (for me) B/S skated 90-95% of a more difficult program while S/P were around 105-110 % of a simpler one.

Final : Kind of a toss up, I probably would go with S/P but I do understand those who would go with B/S.

Basically it was a really close competition that would cause controversy no matter what the result.

In the abstract that's good for skating as very close competitions and fans endlessly rehashing competitions helps support the idea that skating is interesting to follow.

In this case, however, things worked out differently....

Emdee
02-21-2012, 06:14 PM
One cannot look at these two programs under COP. I think LS was choreographed by Lori Nichol who would have totally redesigned it if it was under COP.

Jaana
02-21-2012, 06:22 PM
I thought in 2002 and still feel in the same way: B/S should have won the gold medal and the Canadians the silver.

A.H.Black
02-21-2012, 06:41 PM
I was lucky enough to be in the stands that night. I also went to Logan where the Russians were training and watched Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze in practice a couple of days before the short program. I was also able to see Sale/Pelletier's amazing performance in the 2001 Four Continents program the year before in the Olympic arena.

I had never been much of a fan of Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze before the Olympics. In practice I was surprised at how much I enjoyed them. There was a quiet energy about them as well as amazing flow and speed. I came away thinking they would win if they skated the same way in the competition.

In the actual performance, Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze did not have the same energy, speed or flow they had had when I saw them in practice. The nerves (especially his) were very much on the surface. They were tight. In contrast, Sale/Pelletier skated their best. I don't think it was quite as wonderful as the 2001 Four Continents skate but it was pretty close. I was a little disappointed they went back to "Love Story" for the Olympics as I thought they had progressed from that point and didn't need to go backwards. On the night, though, Sale/Pelletier had a much higher performance quality in all the intangibles and all the things you can see and feel live - that you can't see in a recording.

I remember thinking that it would be close and I hoped very much the judges would give the gold to Sale/Pelletier. I was as disappointed as the rest of the audience but I can't say I was surprised. I always thought the judges who put Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze first were going by past impressions of great performances and not on the performance of that night.

sequins
02-21-2012, 06:45 PM
Back in 2002 I was on the band wagon and definitely thought S&P deserved the gold and I was happy when they got it. However today I see things a little differently.I did and still do enjoy S&P performance and program more than B&S but I do understand why people see B&S win as justified and the more that time passes I wish to god they had just left things the way they were and left S&P with the silver and the more I listen to them I think they sometimes wish the same.

I thought back then as well as today that they should've went with 'Orchid'. I loved that program it's my fave of theirs ever and they gave up on it way to easily.

maharbabackward
02-21-2012, 07:01 PM
Is it just me or are people irked by the addition of music to Meditation that Moskvina added.. the extra "flourishes"? I loved the subtleness of the GPF as flawed as it was .

kwanfan1818
02-21-2012, 07:19 PM
So, it's funny to imagine that under CoP, B&S would have won easily, without any problem (large margin after the SP, and after the LP, IMO).
I disagree: I think that if Brian Joubert could get higher PCS than Jeffrey Buttle at 2008 Worlds, to give just one example, S&P's TR score would have been close to B&S's, despite the differences in complexity. I also think S&P's CH and IN scores would have been higher, due to the relatively subdued performance by B&S.

I know that Love Story was a an old program, but Meditation was hardly new or innovative: many of the elements, including the stunning spread-eagle/spiral combination, were familiar from earlier B&S programs, and the flip-up-and-over lift entrance, which was perfectly appropriate for Chaplin -- the truly innovative program they did, a masterwork IMO -- was out-of-place in Meditation.

Since Meditation was made so late in the year, Moskvina wasn't about to have them learn entirely new elements, and took ones with which they were familiar from Chaplin or other programs.



I was a little disappointed they went back to "Love Story" for the Olympics as I thought they had progressed from that point and didn't need to go backwards.
I'm not surprised that they did, because she had been ill, and according to the book "The Second Mark", they had been having so much trouble in practice leading up to SLC, they thought of quitting. They sounded like train-wrecks leading up to the Olympics, and Orchid was too difficult to attempt under those circumstances.


Is it just me or are people irked by the addition of music to Meditation that Moskvina added.. the extra "flourishes"?
The actual ending of the music is quiet and very beautiful. The tacked on ending was disruptive, IMO.

semogal
02-21-2012, 08:18 PM
I can't debate the technical elements of the two programs. But Love Story gives me chills every time I see the video. Meditation was just a pretty skate.

What struck me in watching these two videos: no ugly catch foot positions in lifts or weird death spirals. I miss the purity of the pre-COP programs.

nlyoung
02-21-2012, 08:45 PM
I may be the only one but I'm just happy there were two gold medals awarded in the end as both were deserving for different reasons :)

This way I didn't have to choose a favorite. ;)

(... I wish the same could be true for dance this year. :cool:)