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escaflowne9282
02-28-2012, 01:28 AM
Exactly. The IOC were the ones who put pressure on the ISU. There is no provision for the ISU to award 2 medals in figure skating the way it happened. The ISU had a choice, they could have done an investigation into the judging or put a bandaid on it and fix it quick. They chose quick.

The ISU had a choice? Rogge basically told Cinquanta "deal with this now, or else!", which had a lot to do with the media firestorm overshadowing everything . Yes, that judge did confess to being pressured, but IMHO the media played a huge role in that outcome.

Subway
02-28-2012, 01:40 AM
There was no conclusive proof of corruption and cheating, just a whole lot of allegations. I agree that figure skating politics can be very unsavory and neither the ISU nor the IOC wanted them to be a continued subject of discussion and media attention. So I disagree that the NA media did not play a major role.

And with that, I believe I will let this particular equine rest in peace.

I'll give it one more whack for you. :) ITA.

Aussie Willy
02-28-2012, 02:08 AM
It wasn't just the North American media that made a big deal about the result immediately after the event. I got a copy of the BBC commentary with the commentator there saying the result was questionable while they were waiting for the medal ceremony. They specifically pointed out that if you look at the possible allegiences on the the judging panel, the French judge was the only one who went against what would have been predictable for all the judges with such a close result.

As for the competition myself, I personally preferred B&S. And most other people here I spoke to at the time felt the same way.

pat c
02-28-2012, 04:28 AM
The ISU had a choice? Rogge basically told Cinquanta "deal with this now, or else!", which had a lot to do with the media firestorm overshadowing everything . Yes, that judge did confess to being pressured, but IMHO the media played a huge role in that outcome.


Yes, I believe they did. They are part of the olympic movement, the creed is:

"The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take part, just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the struggle. The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well."

If the ISU would have shown that were investigating and continuing to investigate and repair the judging irregularities, I believe they would have been off the hook - for a while. The ISU just didn't want an investigation for whatever reason. And they could have used the last sentence in the creed, not to have conquered but to have fought well. The ISU did not conquer, nor did they fight well. ymmv

Japanfan
02-28-2012, 07:21 AM
There was no conclusive proof of corruption and cheating, just a whole lot of allegations. I agree that figure skating politics can be very unsavory and neither the ISU nor the IOC wanted them to be a continued subject of discussion and media attention. So I disagree that the NA media did not play a major role.

And with that, I believe I will let this particular equine rest in peace.

The IOC could have and perhaps should have rejected the second medal proposal. The media isn't responsible for either the ISU's or IOC's politics.

Aussie Willy
02-28-2012, 09:25 AM
Finally got a chance to rewatch these programs which is really interesting. The comments made here about transitions and complexity, and how much more knowledge we have of them these days because of what the system expects, really ring true and in hindsight B&S loaded their program with them. And they had loads of speed and a really beautiful quality to their movement. The error, which didn't disrupt the flow of the combination, had minimal impact on the program.

S&P had a really well executed program but those who have commented that it lacked complexity are correct. There just wasn't as much there.

The discussions here probably just reinforce my opinion that I didn't have a problem with the result back then before they gave S&P a gold medal, regardless of how controversial it was.

PashaFan
02-28-2012, 10:42 AM
Finally got a chance to rewatch these programs which is really interesting. The comments made here about transitions and complexity, and how much more knowledge we have of them these days because of what the system expects, really ring true and in hindsight B&S loaded their program with them. And they had loads of speed and a really beautiful quality to their movement. The error, which didn't disrupt the flow of the combination, had minimal impact on the program.

S&P had a really well executed program but those who have commented that it lacked complexity are correct. There just wasn't as much there.

The discussions here probably just reinforce my opinion that I didn't have a problem with the result back then before they gave S&P a gold medal, regardless of how controversial it was.

I agree 100%.

allezfred
02-28-2012, 10:55 AM
The IOC could have and perhaps should have rejected the second medal proposal. The media isn't responsible for either the ISU's or IOC's politics.

I seem to recall the second medal proposal/directive came from the IOC. The ISU had no choice in the matter as the IOC wanted to make the scandal go away quickly.

Le Gougne's marks for Sale/Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze were discarded, but the rest of her marks stood which was :confused: to me. Surely all of her marks should have been discarded which may have changed the results for the rest of the teams.

I guess so long as Skate Canada and the North American media were happy fairness didn't really come into it. :P

Marco
02-28-2012, 11:43 AM
Le Gougne's marks for Sale/Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze were discarded, but the rest of her marks stood which was :confused: to me. Surely all of her marks should have been discarded which may have changed the results for the rest of the teams.

http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg2002/results/SEG006.HTM

For example, I&Z and T&M should really be tied for 4th in the free skate with 4 votes each.

BUT, the real question is, even after Le Gougne's marks for S&P and B&S were discarded, didn't that still leave them tied for 1st place, with B&S winning overall on a lower factored placement (since they won the short)?

Coco
02-28-2012, 12:43 PM
http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg2002/results/SEG006.HTM

BUT, the real question is, even after Le Gougne's marks for S&P and B&S were discarded, didn't that still leave them tied for 1st place, with B&S winning overall on a lower factored placement (since they won the short)?

I know!!! it was just stupid.

senorita
02-29-2012, 10:12 PM
BUT, the real question is, even after Le Gougne's marks for S&P and B&S were discarded, didn't that still leave them tied for 1st place, with B&S winning overall on a lower factored placement (since they won the short)?

So if they had won anyway without the LeGoune marks, what was the second gold medal all about? rhetoric question that is..

kwanfan1818
02-29-2012, 10:27 PM
I seem to recall the second medal proposal/directive came from the IOC. The ISU had no choice in the matter as the IOC wanted to make the scandal go away quickly.
According to "The Second Mark", "In the Canadians' formal apeal, which is somewhere in each council member's stack of paperwork [which was the evidence of the ISU investigation to date], Canada has put forth its own solution: a dual gold medal." (p. 267)


Le Gougne's marks for Sale/Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze were discarded, but the rest of her marks stood which was :confused: to me. Surely all of her marks should have been discarded which may have changed the results for the rest of the teams.
The ISU council decided three things:

1. To void her marks for S&P and B&S only.
2. To award a second gold medal to S&P
3. To suspend LeGougne and Gailhauguet

The IOC agreed to the ISU council's solution.


I guess so long as Skate Canada and the North American media were happy fairness didn't really come into it. :P
The dual gold was Skate Canada's idea of fairness, since they were the ones who proposed it.

ETA: Or at least as fair as they thought they were going to get, at the time, and considering the future.

aftershocks
03-03-2012, 04:18 AM
Some interesting viewpoints and information I wasn't aware of regarding specific details. All boils down to ISU acting based on the demands of IOC.

The skaters' performances are what they are, and everyone will continue to have their preferences and perceptions.

timmybopper
03-04-2012, 02:40 AM
The saddest part of this whole thing for me has always been that Sale and Pelletier retired right after the Olympics. They had only been together for three seasons. Imagine if they lost the gold and kept going for four more years to grab gold in 2006? They still had such potential to grow and develop! (And I actually think the "Orchid" program had flourishes of the direction they were moving in...)

Japanfan
03-04-2012, 09:02 AM
The saddest part of this whole thing for me has always been that Sale and Pelletier retired right after the Olympics. They had only been together for three seasons. Imagine if they lost the gold and kept going for four more years to grab gold in 2006? They still had such potential to grow and develop! (And I actually think the "Orchid" program had flourishes of the direction they were moving in...)

ITA. I thought "Orchid" had the potential to be true masterpiece that exceeded "Love Story" as a signature piece.

In fact I miss that era of pairs. IMO the current top pairs just don't quite compare to S/P, B/S and S/Z.