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View Full Version : Meditation vs Love story at SLC Olympics



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casken
02-25-2012, 05:10 AM
I never cared for Love Story or the Orchid program either. I always felt Tristan and Isolde was easily the best program that S&P had, but that doesn't seem to be a widely shared opinion.

aftershocks
02-25-2012, 05:17 AM
^^ Yes, Tristan & Isolde is my favorite of S/P's eligible skating career. I posted a link to it earlier.

Here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELys8PkIjEM

walei
02-25-2012, 05:21 AM
As I have said in another thread before, Orchid really was just a better rearrangement o elements from Triatan & Isolde, in which S/P skated quite brilliantly so I don't buy the argument that it was too difficult for them. It was just that they nailed Love Story at GPF and won over B/S, and massively bombed Orchid at Canadians that year that tipped them over to favor using LS at the Olympics.

Sasha'sSpins
02-25-2012, 07:56 AM
For me, it's Meditation. I was very impressed with the choreography and construction of that program, particularly the edge-work and intertwining steps surrounding the death spiral. There were so many shifts in weight, shifts in balance, changes of hold and position, constant extension above the hips and moments of continual movement.

I thought Love Story was skated very well, but with S&P, I always found certain aspects of their presentation to be quite unfinished. Jamie Sale's line always looked quite ragged to me, and his posture was terrible at times. They rarely extended above their hips. Their basic skills, edging/ stroking, and overall flow/glide really weren't bad, but not quite as strong as B&S. The program itself seemed to spend a lot of time standing in one place and mugging or setting up for jumps as opposed to really utilizing the ice well.

I found I agreed most with the Chinese and Polish judges who made sure to give S&P the technical mark, but gave presentation to B&S ,who had a program that ,IMHO, really paid better attention to the judging criteria of presentation under 6.0.
However, I can understand those who would have wanted to reward a cleaner skate as well. It was a close call in my eyes.

I also thought Orchid was a beautiful program. I loved the pairs spin and the counterpoint footwork in particular. That program was so beautifully phrased and used up the ice surface very constructively. S&P had a nice use of connecting steps, more intertwining body movement, and more variations in hold and motion than they did with Love Story . They managed to skate with their same bravura/connection without giving any of that up. Love Story felt like such a cop-out in comparison. ::shrugs::

^^^
THIS!!

I just couldn't warm to Love Story-I'd seen it all before.

PashaFan
02-25-2012, 11:27 AM
As I have said in another thread before, Orchid really was just a better rearrangement o elements from Triatan & Isolde, in which S/P skated quite brilliantly so I don't buy the argument that it was too difficult for them. It was just that they nailed Love Story at GPF and won over B/S, and massively bombed Orchid at Canadians that year that tipped them over to favor using LS at the Olympics.

I've seen most events that Jamie & David did in 00',01 & 02'.
Orchid could have been an amazing program if they had stuck with it but I always felt that Jamie was very fragile & the Love Story programe was a safety net for her. She felt comfortable with that.
Nationals that year for them was awful & they looked stunned afterwards.
Elena & Anton on the other hand stayed with their Chaplin programe then changed it to Meditation.
I truly loved both & even though at the time I did not agree with a second set of gold medals being given, now I think it was the best outcome for everyone.

robinhood
02-25-2012, 12:03 PM
Well, if we're going to compare the programs for me it's a no brainier. Meditation is a work of art, every detail was studied and it's the epitome of what Pairs Skating should be, IMHO. Love Story is a nice program, though I don't think it had the research and choreographic detail of the former.
About the performances, it's true S/P were cleaner and sold their programs exceptionally well but B/S superior skating skills, lines and athletic ability are very evident. Also, quite shallow comment but I find the costumes of the Canadians totally uninspiring.
I know it was the Olympics and it was Russia vs. Canada (N.America) but I actually find more controversy in the decision of Worlds in 1999 when that was a clear athlete/artist situation where the Chinese far outskated B/S and had a program as complex as them (though not as polished, again)

museksk8r
02-25-2012, 03:25 PM
The original result should never have been tampered with; it was right from the start! Elena and Anton were and are the best!! :swoon::cheer2::encore:

PashaFan
02-25-2012, 03:55 PM
The original result should never have been tampered with; it was right from the start! Elena and Anton were and are the best!! :swoon::cheer2::encore:

I'm with you but it was never going to go away if the Canadians did not get another gold medal. The IOC were not happy with the whole situation & many were starting to question if Figure Skating had a part in the Olympics.
They needed to act quickly.
If you look at the three major championships Jamie & David competed-Worlds in 00', Worlds in 01' & the Olympics in 02'. Jamie made an error in each of the short programes. I thought that Elena & Anton should have won Worlds in 01' (but none of my friends did). Jamie fell in the short & singled out on the axel in the free. Elena & Anton were perfect in the short & had a slightly dodgy split twist in the free.
If Elena & Anton skate perfectly IMO they are way better than Jamie & David.

Zemgirl
02-25-2012, 04:10 PM
I thought that Elena & Anton should have won Worlds in 01' (but none of my friends did). Jamie fell in the short & singled out on the axel in the free. Elena & Anton were perfect in the short & had a slightly dodgy split twist in the free.
I think the reception Chaplin got, especially the Worlds result, is what convinced Moskvina that B/S would have to skate something more classic. Elena is quoted in The Second Mark as saying that the judges didn't get Chaplin and that they want to be fed love carrots.

Back in 2002, I was a newbie fan and liked Shen and Zhao of the top pairs. But I thought then - and still do now - that Meditation was the better program, Elena and Anton the better skaters, and the mistakes minor enough that they should have won as they did: on the second mark.

falling_dance
02-25-2012, 04:55 PM
nm

Vash01
02-25-2012, 06:10 PM
Is it just me or are people irked by the addition of music to Meditation that Moskvina added.. the extra "flourishes"? I loved the subtleness of the GPF as flawed as it was .

I too liked the GPF version of the music better- it was pure. However, from what I read, Tamara felt after the GPF that under the judging criteria B&S needed more variation in the music, so she added those 'highlights'. Tamara was not going to take any chances, knowing that her pair would have some obstacles in North America (but I don't think even she imagined what actually happened). I also liked the last lift in GPF (romantic, versus the head throw back position in the Olympics) better; it seemed smoother and prettier.

Regardless, Meditation was a complex, beautiful program, which I was lucky enough to watch at the Delta Center in SLC that night. Love Story was a pleasant program but it was very simple, lacking in transitions, which made it easier to skate it clean (also the fact that they were skating it since 2000. Even Shen & Zhao said that B&S deserved to win. B&S skated well enough, though not perfect, and deserved to get a narrow win. One small error- a step out on the 2A by Anton- was so insignificant when you consider the complexity of the choreography, the superiority of their basic skating, the speed going from one difficult element to another, that the result should never have been questioned in the first place.

IMO Love Story was not a competitive program, and I had mentioned it as soon as I found out they were going to use that in the Olympics. The Orchid would have been competitive, but we saw how uncomfortable Jamie was with that program, and it was unlikely that they would have skated it clean and with confidence. Had the Olympics not taken place in North America, it is quite possible that the results would have been accepted as a close win for B&S.

Had B&S skated their Citylights (Chaplin) program at the Olympics, they would have skated it with more confidence (again,an old program with minor changes), but in 2001 they got a mixed reception from the judges. IMO they deserved to win the 2001 worlds, even with a couple of minor flaws (crash landing on the split 3tw and a shaky landing on the throw 3R), because of the originality and the complex moves, speed, their interpretation of the character of the music. B&S loved that program, and wanted to skate it in the Olympics. However, losing GPF 01 and worlds 01 was a red flag. During the 2001-2002 season the judges told Tamara that they wanted B&S to skate to classical music, so she chose a familiar piece of music- Meditation- and made the choreography so difficult that no other pair could come close to it. B&S were well rewarded for the complexity of the choreography, their speed, lack of rest periods, in the presentation marks. Choreographically it was a more interesting program, and it was skated well, based on what I saw. It was not the third rate performance that our media made it, and the results should never have been questioned. However, politics are politics and FS cannot escape it.

kwanfan1818
02-25-2012, 07:50 PM
Some quotes from "The Second Mark"

"In terms of the great Chaplin program, which Europe had hailed as a masterpiece, Moskvina was acting very mysterious and wise...Having tested Chaplin out on North America in the the year before the Olympics and gotten burned once, she wasn't going to bring the program back to Salt Lake City." (p. 209)

"Now the Olympics loomed, and they needed a program. All autumn, they quarreled about it. Lena and Anton wanted to keep the Chaplin program, or maybe make a new variant of it. But Moskvina wouldn't hear of it. 'I heard many remarks from judges who considered Chaplin program too showy...And I was afraid that t the Olympics this principle can be used to judge the program low. So I thought, Okay, I will better take this classical program, that nobody can make any criticism.'" (p. 210)

"In the months they were suposed to be polishing [Meditation], they didn't practice it enough. Whenever they could Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze put in the Chaplin CD instead." (p. 211)

"They couldn't afford to take a gamble on Chaplin. The judges might find fault, and they could lose the Olympic gold medal--again. Their entire future earnings depended on winning.' (p. 211)

ETA this quote: "After a split-decision loss to the Canadians six weeks ago, in Canada, Moskvina went to some judges for advice. 'I talked to different judges directly, indirectly. I want to find out impression of the judges. So we talk, and I am getting like the feeling.' The feeling was that the 'Meditation' program was too subtle. So Moskvina hired a digital composer to add more instruments to the music. She brought the choreographers back to fire up every small gesture, and hastily cmmissioned new costumes in bolder colors." (p. 226)

Context from earlier in the book: interest in figure skating in Russia was at an all-time low, with many empty seats at shows, and the West was the only place they could earn money at the time. Hard to believe that was only a decade ago.

'[At GPF]: They got two sixes [for "Love Story"] from judges who were going to be at the Olympics.' (p. 219)

"It seemed clear that they should take the "Love Story" program to the Olympics, but all the same Sale and Pelletier decide to give "Orchid" one more chance [at Canadian Nationals]." (p. 219)

B/S's Chaplin program at 2001 Cup of Russia is the greatest pairs program I've ever seen on tape, and "Orchid" was a beauty. Both teams started committed to their original programs -- Chaplin and Orchid -- and both teams changed them because they thought they read the judges' preferences, and there was too much at stake to stick with the better programs.

Vash01
02-25-2012, 08:04 PM
Somewhat OT: The second mark had so many factual errors that I don't refer to that book for information. I don't mean that everything in it is wrong either, but when something in print is obviously wrong- because my tapes tell otherwise- I start doubting the rest of the material.

allezfred
02-25-2012, 08:31 PM
I thought that Elena & Anton should have won Worlds in 01' (but none of my friends did). Jamie fell in the short & singled out on the axel in the free. Elena & Anton were perfect in the short & had a slightly dodgy split twist in the free.
If Elena & Anton skate perfectly IMO they are way better than Jamie & David.

The result of 2001 Worlds was a far bigger scandal than anything that happened in Salt Lake City. Of course, nothing came of it since the "right" team won.

AxelAnnie
02-25-2012, 08:41 PM
Although both were great, I preferred S&P on the basis of the perfecly clean elements throughout the program...the twist, death spirals, throws, jumps, lifts...all were done spotlessly.

B&S had some loose ends despite the fact that their program complicated. That alone can't convince me that B&S were better that night.

Totally agree.
Just watched ORCHID... Thanks for the link.. I surely did not appreciate that program before.... Now I think it was complex, nuanced, sophisticated and beautifully executed... Wish they had kept that...maybe we could have avoided Le Scandal.